tooch
Weekend rider
Posts: 70
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Post by tooch on Mar 11, 2020 10:54:56 GMT 1
Hi all, new to this forum and new to 2 strokes in general! Recently picked up this lovely little RZ250. They don't come up for sale very often in Australia (2 strokes never do really), especially around where I live. This one popped up for a reasonable price and was 1.5 hours away so after work I grabbed the trailer and went for a drive and brought it home. It's running and completely original, was sitting for a long time until the previous owner found it and did some servicing on it. He's done a bunch of the dirty work already, fork seals, brakes, fluid service, greased bearings, and cleaned out the exhausts. It's fairly tidy, and has no signs of being messed with (no cut wiring or any bodge jobs that I can see so far) but needs a few things. So far I've identified: -YPVS controller faulty. Valves did not cycle on startup. I opened it up and reflowed a bunch of the solder joints and it's better, but still faults occasionally. Tapping on the controller makes it behave, so I believe there's still more faulty solder joints or maybe a broken wire. I plan to open it up again and completely reflow all of the joints. Tedious but I'd like to try fix this before replacing it. -Tank has had repairs including a bad epoxy liner. Looks messy inside. Need to re-do. There is some rust bubbling on the outside but it's not severe, and looks like the worst bits were patched up with weld at some stage. I'll re-line it and hope for the best for now, don't feel like paying $1000 or so to have it restored just yet. -Oil pump leaking. Noticed oil leaking from the shaft, and possibly leaking into the gearbox. Will most likely send to 'Arrow' to have it rebuilt. -Clutch sticking. I'm hoping this is just due to not having been ridden properly for a long time. Worst case may need new plates. -Frame paint is shot. Worn and has surface rust, but nothing too severe. Was planning to just sand and paint with engine in-situ but I'm leaning more and more towards pulling it apart and doing it more thoroughly. Will have a think about what to do here. -Front headlight fairing missing, no big deal. -Front indicators replaced with rubbish aftermarket cheapies, with incorrect bulbs so flasher doesn't work properly. I've got the original indicator stalks so I'll just order a pair of those aftermarket copies of the originals. -Needs tyres and chain/sprockets. I'll try and remember to update here as I go, but I'm pretty bad at remembering to take photos and update these things -Simon
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Post by beardy on Mar 11, 2020 11:22:51 GMT 1
Hi and welcome in. Clutch may also be that the basket is slightly grooved on the fingers. Easily addressed with a file.
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tooch
Weekend rider
Posts: 70
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Post by tooch on Mar 11, 2020 11:37:07 GMT 1
Hi and welcome in. Clutch may also be that the basket is slightly grooved on the fingers. Easily addressed with a file. Good point thanks, I'll check that I probably need to whip the clutch side cover off anyway due to a small weep so I'll take a look while I'm in there.
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Post by JonW on Mar 11, 2020 12:43:05 GMT 1
Welcome tooch!
Where are you located? might be someone close by you can talk to and get some help from if you need it.
Frame defo needs some work and that tank is thru on the lowers for sure and being held by the liner.
I might suggest that you dont try to run this, i suspect its been sat so it will need crank seals at the very least (do a leak down test) and its a good idea to do a full resto on the frame at the same time. That way it'll not explode and work well for years to come.
These are simple bikes, but expensive when the go wrong and running one with dead seals will do that.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2020 12:57:10 GMT 1
Welcome into the mad house
As Jon says, whereabouts are you located ?
I'm in Perth
Was that the one in Victoria that was for sale just after New year?
If so it was an excellent buy at the price it sold for
And definitely don't run it until you've pulled it down, you are asking for issues if you don't
Regards
Howard
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Post by Mr Kipling on Mar 11, 2020 18:32:51 GMT 1
hi and a warm welcome to the forum loadsa helpful people on here for when u get stuck and need advice , enjoy the build....
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tooch
Weekend rider
Posts: 70
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Post by tooch on Mar 12, 2020 5:05:17 GMT 1
Welcome tooch! Where are you located? might be someone close by you can talk to and get some help from if you need it. Frame defo needs some work and that tank is thru on the lowers for sure and being held by the liner. I might suggest that you dont try to run this, i suspect its been sat so it will need crank seals at the very least (do a leak down test) and its a good idea to do a full resto on the frame at the same time. That way it'll not explode and work well for years to come. These are simple bikes, but expensive when the go wrong and running one with dead seals will do that. Thanks mate! I'm located in Melbourne. The previous owner got it running, and I've fired it up a few times but just to check things out really, but won't be running it anymore until I check/sort things out. Thanks for the advice, leaning towards pulling the whole thing apart and giving the frame a cleanup and some paint. Probably saves me doing it again in a year's time. Can the crank seals without splitting the cases? I'd rather avoid splitting them if possible, but if I have to then maybe I should just rebuild the whole damn engine while I'm in there! Not sure what I'm going to do about the tank if that's the case. Might make the whole project too much work I suspect.. Welcome into the mad house As Jon says, whereabouts are you located ? I'm in Perth Was that the one in Victoria that was for sale just after New year? If so it was an excellent buy at the price it sold for And definitely don't run it until you've pulled it down, you are asking for issues if you don't Regards Howard Thanks Howard! I'm in Victoria. I just bought this last week, not sure if it maybe sold earlier in the year though. I possibly paid a little too much for this, but they are near impossible to find anyway. Yeah, looks like I'm going to be pulling it all apart now! It seemed like a simpler project before I really looked at it in depth hi and a warm welcome to the forum loadsa helpful people on here for when u get stuck and need advice , enjoy the build.... Thank you I spent a lot of time reading posts on here and it was all super helpful so I decided to join up
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Post by JonW on Mar 12, 2020 7:15:48 GMT 1
I am in Sydney, couple more of use sydneysiders here too as well as those up the c/coast and onto newie... not that info helps you, but someone might read it later.
you need to split the cases to do the seals, but these are easy engines to work on. at that point i would check out the cyls and see what youve got, but you dont actually need to disturb them as you can flip the engine over. your call.
The tank may well be fixable, dont panic until you have to. There was a japanese company making repro tanks for these models, check the posts about that out. DO NOT BUY AN INDIAN TANK EVER! (clear? lol)
Plumma is in Vic and im sure there are others as well but they dont post much here. spooch possibly and maybe some others who i cant remember right now.
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Post by dusty350 on Mar 12, 2020 7:56:43 GMT 1
Hi Welcome to the forum Good advice from the fellas - crank seals definitely, and if it were mine, a full strip/check/refurb. It makes a lot of sense for long term reliability, even if the rebuild costs can be eye watering ! Enjoy, it looks a good example to start off with, and well worth the effort. Dusty
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tooch
Weekend rider
Posts: 70
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Post by tooch on Mar 12, 2020 11:42:05 GMT 1
I am in Sydney, couple more of use sydneysiders here too as well as those up the c/coast and onto newie... not that info helps you, but someone might read it later. you need to split the cases to do the seals, but these are easy engines to work on. at that point i would check out the cyls and see what youve got, but you dont actually need to disturb them as you can flip the engine over. your call. The tank may well be fixable, dont panic until you have to. There was a japanese company making repro tanks for these models, check the posts about that out. DO NOT BUY AN INDIAN TANK EVER! (clear? lol) Plumma is in Vic and im sure there are others as well but they dont post much here. spooch possibly and maybe some others who i cant remember right now. Ok thanks for the info. I'll do compression and leak down tests and try determine how much work it needs. Need to get hold of or DIY a leak down tester. Yeah I won't panic too much about the tank yet! I've been offered a repaired one for a decent price, waiting on some pics to see how it looks. Those Japanese ones look decent, and yeah I won't go near the Indian ones, I've read much about them being sh*te
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tooch
Weekend rider
Posts: 70
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Post by tooch on Mar 12, 2020 11:44:20 GMT 1
Hi Welcome to the forum Good advice from the fellas - crank seals definitely, and if it were mine, a full strip/check/refurb. It makes a lot of sense for long term reliability, even if the rebuild costs can be eye watering ! Enjoy, it looks a good example to start off with, and well worth the effort. Dusty Thanks Dusty Seems like the crank seals are a must do, I'll give it a good check over while I've got it open. I've got no real time frame to get this done, it can take as long as it takes. I just need to do it logically so I don't end up with a useless pile of parts that I lose interest in
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tooch
Weekend rider
Posts: 70
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Post by tooch on Mar 12, 2020 11:49:42 GMT 1
Here's my daily, a 2017 Monster 1200 I hope non-Yamaha/non 2-stroke content is welcome here!
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2020 17:22:11 GMT 1
I'd better not show that pic to my missus, she'd want to trade her M900 in
The one near Dandenong went for $550, no fairings though, however was a matching numbers, I registered an interest with the seller, however all the transport mobs were on holiday so couldn't get a quote to bring it to WA
It went unsold, so it went back up a day later again and was sold about 4 days later, I eventually got a transport quote 3 days after the auction ended hmm
As for tanks, look up Import Monster and go from there, IM are based in Victoria and very good to deal with
I bought a spare about 5 years ago via them
When you are rebuilding the expensive engine bits, always search the part number, you will be surprised at the price differences between the same part
Most of all have fun
You are way, way ahead of me, my 350 F1 was bought as boxes of bits with no full picture to work with, that was over 2 years ago now, but I'm getting there
WA = Wait Awhile = waiting awhile for parts from all over the world
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tooch
Weekend rider
Posts: 70
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Post by tooch on Mar 12, 2020 20:35:49 GMT 1
I'd better not show that pic to my missus, she'd want to trade her M900 in The one near Dandenong went for $550, no fairings though, however was a matching numbers, I registered an interest with the seller, however all the transport mobs were on holiday so couldn't get a quote to bring it to WA It went unsold, so it went back up a day later again and was sold about 4 days later, I eventually got a transport quote 3 days after the auction ended hmm As for tanks, look up Import Monster and go from there, IM are based in Victoria and very good to deal with I bought a spare about 5 years ago via them When you are rebuilding the expensive engine bits, always search the part number, you will be surprised at the price differences between the same part Most of all have fun You are way, way ahead of me, my 350 F1 was bought as boxes of bits with no full picture to work with, that was over 2 years ago now, but I'm getting there WA = Wait Awhile = waiting awhile for parts from all over the world $550! Far out. I paid umm a fair bit more for this one :S This one has matching numbers too which is cool. Thanks, I’ll check in with Import Monster and see what’s available. Thanks for the tip re: parts, I usually spend ages looking for the lowest prices for parts and things
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Post by donkeychomp on Mar 12, 2020 23:22:19 GMT 1
Seen a LOT worse. That'll be a sweet bike when she's done. Enjoy the refurb!
Alex
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Post by JonW on Mar 13, 2020 3:26:56 GMT 1
Lol $550... thats not what most sell for, that was a good deal. yours is a runner and id say mostly there, so worth 3-4x that for sure.
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tooch
Weekend rider
Posts: 70
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Post by tooch on Mar 13, 2020 10:07:22 GMT 1
Seen a LOT worse. That'll be a sweet bike when she's done. Enjoy the refurb! Alex Thanks Alex! I'm looking forward to getting stuck into it! Might start pulling it apart on the weekend. I need to do it systematically though so I don't end up with a big pile of junk in my shed Lol $550... thats not what most sell for, that was a good deal. yours is a runner and id say mostly there, so worth 3-4x that for sure. I was looking at past sales on ebay just now and I think I found the $550 one. Looks like it was missing loads of stuff so I feel a bit better about what I paid for this now
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Post by Jethro5 on Mar 13, 2020 11:46:11 GMT 1
The $560 one that sold in Jan was good buying as a donor/spares bike. With no tank,fairings,clocks etc would be an expensive resto (aren’t they all) and less appeal as a 250 for most.
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Post by JonW on Mar 13, 2020 12:43:57 GMT 1
The 250 appeal thing is really not so much of an issue in Aus. We had so many 250s that most of them are 250s that are out there. Even tho 90% of them seem to be 350 upgraded now anyway. The only place Ive seen people try to make out a 250 (even with a 350 motor and few have even heard of a 51L) isnt a good (or valuable when restored) thing is facebook, tho to be fair the rest of their advice is pretty much flawed as well. Ignore their hate and enjoy these bikes, no matter what flavour you have. I only have one 350 frame in all my fleet, and that is fitted with a 250 engine... but then I dont listen to the hype driven by the classic car collector style experts. Have fun.
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tooch
Weekend rider
Posts: 70
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Post by tooch on Mar 14, 2020 7:09:59 GMT 1
Got a good few hours dismantling work done today. I must say, this has been the most enjoyable bike I've ever worked on in terms of dismantling! Everything came out with hand tools only, no impact drivers or anything of the sort needed. There's evidence of some stuff having been removed before, but also the greasy, oily film all over everything has kept it all well lubed . Also no munted bolts or screws anywhere to be found, no bodgy wiring at all, only one unfortunate breakage that I found, this had been JB welded back on I guess maybe a chain snapped at some point in its life? No big deal, I'll attempt to braze it back on or something. Luckily it's not really structural, just a bit annoying. Did a compression test, got 100 PSI on the left and 105 on the right. Seems decent but I have no spec to go by. Took a peek inside the cylinders and the pistons look pretty clean and not scored, and the bores have visible hone marks so maybe it's had a rebuild not long ago? Had a casualty during the dismantling Knocked the fscking oil tank over while I was removing it, spilt Castrol 2T everywhere This is where I ended for the day. If I have a bit of time tomorrow I'll get the engine out. And just so you know what I'm working with, this is the tiny shed I'm doing all of this in! Next house I buy will definitely have a garage.
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Post by panzermatt on Mar 14, 2020 12:09:58 GMT 1
ahhh this is great, i love these strip down pics. yours looks good, there was a member here a while back with a black 250, my god. the bodges had bodges. crazy bad. keep up with the pics, we all love pics.
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Post by panzermatt on Mar 14, 2020 12:13:49 GMT 1
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Post by donkeychomp on Mar 15, 2020 0:07:11 GMT 1
The old chain damaged crank case. Just be thankful you have the part to weld back on! They normally fly off into the sunset along with the chain... Alex
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Post by JonW on Mar 15, 2020 0:55:38 GMT 1
any half decent tig welder can weld it back on.
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tooch
Weekend rider
Posts: 70
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Post by tooch on Mar 15, 2020 6:13:29 GMT 1
ahhh this is great, i love these strip down pics. yours looks good, there was a member here a while back with a black 250, my god. the bodges had bodges. crazy bad. keep up with the pics, we all love pics. Thanks! Will keep up with the pics. It's good motivation for me too! The old chain damaged crank case. Just be thankful you have the part to weld back on! They normally fly off into the sunset along with the chain... Alex Hahaha any half decent tig welder can weld it back on. Was thinking of giving these things a crack www.ebay.com.au/itm/Aluminium-Repair-rods-Ultra-Bond-30-Rod-Trade-pack-Brazing-Soldering-Welding-/191830257211Otherwise yeah I'll get someone to weld it for me
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tooch
Weekend rider
Posts: 70
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Post by tooch on Mar 16, 2020 9:44:53 GMT 1
Got the engine out today. Again, didn't need to arse around with impact wrenches or anything, just hand tools and a bit of muscle. Few more things to pull off and then it's time to work on the frame. Still undecided on sandblast+powdercoat vs strip and home paint job (Rustoleum or similar). Powdercoat: Pros: -Easy, drop off and forget about it -Hard wearing Cons: -More expensive (~$200) -Can peel if it gets chipped -Harder to touch up -Need to remove VIN plate and all bearings etc -Can rust underneath the powder coat -Not factory 'authentic' -Frame number stamping may get covered over Paint: Pros: -Cheap (several $15-20 rattle cans) -Can be easily touched up if chipped -Rust proof paint provides some added protection -Can just mask off VIN plate and bearings etc Cons: -Lots more arseing about prepping and painting -Not as hard wearing as powdercoat Thoughts?
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Post by dusty350 on Mar 16, 2020 10:08:01 GMT 1
Modern powdercoat is excellent. It just needs to be applied by someone who cares about their workmanship and understands bikes. Certain areas can be masked off,like vin plate and frame stampings. I've never had a frame rust after being blasted and coated, and I've never had it peel after chipping, which I've found doesn't happen easily either. It's a tough finish that's great for bike frames. My 400 frame was done around 1990, and it still looks fantastic now. Downside is it's not an original finish of course, so if 100% originality is your aim then paint is the more obvious choice.
Dusty😉
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2020 15:40:07 GMT 1
$200 sounds, at least on the surface, a good price for powder coating - industrial that is, I did my frame in powder coat, as the bike sat over the 18 months whilst I collected parts, the powder started to fail and bubble , that job cost me $150 to do, I'd sandblasted the frame myself, it took me about 5 hours, looking at the surface rust on your frame I'd say it would be a good idea to give a sand blast but not with garnet, it's too coarse and could blow off all the small bracketry, use a softer media eg Staurolite, it's also $25 a bag compared to $80 odd for garnet
I did my blasting in a 3 man tent with a protective hood on and a hand held sand blaster, in the tent I could recycle the grit 4 or 5 times before it stopped being sharp to remove the paint, i found this recycle gig after I'd gone through 50kg of media, schoolboy error soon rectified
I then zinc coated it to stop rust, then off to my local (industrial) coater not knowing there was a difference, the finish was good, I thought, but it just wasn't the right colour - too orange
Then I saw what a friend of mine had done for his bikes, actually the guy I bought my boxes of bike from, the difference was chalk and cheese
So I contacted the, for want of a better word, the real powder coater with my frame and other bits in hand and went to see his work, he took a look at my frame and not only told me how much it had cost me but which shop it was done in, impressive, this guy knows his competition (or lack of it)
He then proceeded to show me industrial work he did and craft work, the industrial powder is a lot coarser and the finish fairly dull in comparison the the craft powder which is as fine as talcum powder
If you want a proper job it will cost you about $1000 for the frame alone, including the clear gloss over the base coat
If you PM me your email address I'll send you some pics
The powder is thicker than paint and you need to be careful putting your parts on so you don't chip it, my coater recommends a fine sandpaper on the surface to thin it out and a bit of light oil to slide parts on, the powder is tough but it still chips if your aren't careful
It is also recommended that no matter what finish you do, as Dusty pointed out, have the frame number cleared over not coloured over, it makes it easier to see for licensing purposes
The cheap rattle can paints won't last, the paint is acrylic and the gloss goes dull very quickly, you are better off with 2 pac paint, which you can get in rattle cans, I use a brand called Spray-Max, it's about $26 a can and you'd probably need 2 or 3 to do your frame
Painting with rattle cans isn't overly hard, however I'd practice with the el cheapo stuff first to get the hang of your spraying distances and techniques, remembering that you are painting what is essentially a whole heap of tubes welded together in a pattern that is not easy to access all areas from one position, you will miss bits, guaranteed unless your a spray painter by trade
Hanging the frame would help and hinder at the same time, it will spin when you want it to and spin when you don't, a very big lazy susan works pretty well, if you sand blast it DO NOT touch the frame with your bare hands, always wear clean gloves, the oil on your hands will leave an imprint you will be able to take a print off many years later and the paint will try not to stick to it
The good 2 pac paint flows a lot better than the cheap stuff, you will soon find that out as soon as you start using it, you also need to wear a chemical mask and cover everything within cooee, including your self, if you don't want everything coated in over spray
I'd still remove the VIN, its only 2 1/8th rivets and they drill out easy, I replaced mine with the sealed stainless variety
A good paint job in a paint shop could cost you $5-600 maybe more
So yes you have pro's and cons with both methods, in the end you decide what you would like to to do
Above all have fun doing it
By the way that flywheel will most likely be a mongrel to get off, make sure you buy the good removal tools, the $10 ones generally won't cut it, unless someone has taken it off recently
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tooch
Weekend rider
Posts: 70
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Post by tooch on Mar 21, 2020 5:14:14 GMT 1
"tHiS wOn'T tAkE mE lOnG, jUsT a sImPLe pROjEcT" Started degreasing the frame today, and it quickly became apparent that sandblasting and powdercoating was going to be far easier. So I did this But then I found this: And this: And this: So it's going to need some welding. But now I'm wondering if I need to get some kind of wax or rust converter inside the frame to stop it rusting any more? Also painted some stuff and got paint spray all through my hair So this is going to be a much longer project than expected, but hey that's always the way it goes right?
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Post by JonW on Mar 21, 2020 7:09:48 GMT 1
dont put anything inside the frame until youve welded and PC'd it. any juice can play havoc with TIG and anything that leaks out during the cooking of PC will ruin the finish. hair is made for colour... women do it all the time
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