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MT2
Feb 13, 2024 12:44:38 GMT 1
Post by urbantangleweed on Feb 13, 2024 12:44:38 GMT 1
No running temperature. It is a bit of a juggling game which also has a lot to do with the efficiency of the radiator. But aim for a degree max when running at shall we say 7000rpm. You need good flow through the engine or it will get hot. Standard pump is good enough. Think of the radiator like a river. Big river slow flow small river faster flow, the bigger the radiator generally it will flow slower. The in out temperature of engine is important. OK, well I'll have a play about when I get the rad back and see how it is.
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Post by urbantangleweed on Feb 17, 2024 17:45:45 GMT 1
Had a play about with the cooling system this afternoon, not sure how viewable the image will be but here goes....
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MT2
Feb 18, 2024 1:42:51 GMT 1
Post by 4l04ever on Feb 18, 2024 1:42:51 GMT 1
You can look into water wetter too...
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MT2
Feb 18, 2024 7:44:40 GMT 1
Post by urbantangleweed on Feb 18, 2024 7:44:40 GMT 1
You can look into water wetter too... I did look at all these kind of products a while back and deduced it's largely snake oil Rob.
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MT2
Feb 18, 2024 11:42:43 GMT 1
Post by kirkhd on Feb 18, 2024 11:42:43 GMT 1
What about that Evans stuff that Ed China used in a TR6, sure they do stuff for bikes.
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MT2
Feb 18, 2024 13:38:00 GMT 1
Post by urbantangleweed on Feb 18, 2024 13:38:00 GMT 1
What about that Evans stuff that Ed China used in a TR6, sure they do stuff for bikes. More snake oil it seems, in fact, the properties of the Evans stuff actually means it dissipates heat far far slower than even plain water. The thing it can do, is cope with higher temperatures than water without boiling so if you have a hot running engine, it will allow it to run hotter without the coolant boiling. As for reducing engine temperature, it's actually more likely to keep the engine hotter for longer. If Ed claims it was brilliant stuff and the answer to cooling issues, a cynic might suggest there was some revenue available for him saying that?
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Post by midlifecrisisrd on Feb 18, 2024 13:55:41 GMT 1
I'd always thought plain water dissipated the best
The additives are more for corrosion protection, lowering freezing point and raising boiling point
Steve
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Post by urbantangleweed on Feb 18, 2024 15:01:04 GMT 1
You got it spot on Steve 👍🏻
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MT2
Feb 19, 2024 10:26:19 GMT 1
Post by muttsnuts on Feb 19, 2024 10:26:19 GMT 1
cooling is a balance, if it goes through the radiator too quickly then the engine will run hotter, if it lingers in the radiator too long then it can run too cold, but that is only part of the story, flow rate is important, but if your pump flows more than the radiator then you can get "buffetting" which causes hot spots as the water is effectively "backing up" at the radiator inlet, conversely if the flow rate is too slow then the engine can run hot as the cooler water isn't getting to the engine quickly enough
The one area people miss all the time is the surface area of the radiator, that is more important than its capacity (to some degree), you need a big surface area, most LC's/Hybrids etc get this wrong, my simple test is to stand in front of the bike and look at the radiator, as a rule of thumb, whatever you can see of the radiator at its level is how much air will see it (leaving aero-dynamics out of it for now), so if the front wheel/mudguard and forks are covering 80% of the radiator then the chances are only the very outer edges of the radiator are actually cooling, the quick and easy fix for this is to make and fit some side scoops on the radiator to direct cold air over the centre of the radiator - testing on the dyno has shown between 6 and 8 degrees drop in temperature by doing this alone
HTH
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MT2
Feb 19, 2024 11:00:01 GMT 1
Post by urbantangleweed on Feb 19, 2024 11:00:01 GMT 1
cooling is a balance, if it goes through the radiator too quickly then the engine will run hotter, if it lingers in the radiator too long then it can run too cold, but that is only part of the story, flow rate is important, but if your pump flows more than the radiator then you can get "buffetting" which causes hot spots as the water is effectively "backing up" at the radiator inlet, conversely if the flow rate is too slow then the engine can run hot as the cooler water isn't getting to the engine quickly enough The one area people miss all the time is the surface area of the radiator, that is more important than its capacity (to some degree), you need a big surface area, most LC's/Hybrids etc get this wrong, my simple test is to stand in front of the bike and look at the radiator, as a rule of thumb, whatever you can see of the radiator at its level is how much air will see it (leaving aero-dynamics out of it for now), so if the front wheel/mudguard and forks are covering 80% of the radiator then the chances are only the very outer edges of the radiator are actually cooling, the quick and easy fix for this is to make and fit some side scoops on the radiator to direct cold air over the centre of the radiator - testing on the dyno has shown between 6 and 8 degrees drop in temperature by doing this alone HTH Thanks Dave, all useful information that. The one thing I do know is the radiator on MT2 is too small, but it's the biggest I can get in given the confined space without chopping bodywork etc. about and I don't want to detract from the design of the base bike (other than it having a PV lump in rather than the original 14bhp 4T single!) so I have to work with what I've got. I could go to twin side mounted rads (motocross bike style) as on MT1 which provide plenty of surface area for cooling, but I'd rather keep the cleaner lines a single rad provides and work round the issues resulting from that as best I can. I have had side scoops on the rad previously and they do help. There is room for these to be slightly bigger, so I'll make those up to maximum possible size once I have other things adjusted that are relevant to what size they can be. I've also shoe-horned in a pukka SPAL suction fan on the back of the rad which is the most effective fan solution I can find given the limited space available.
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MT2
Feb 19, 2024 11:08:28 GMT 1
Post by muttsnuts on Feb 19, 2024 11:08:28 GMT 1
do you have space to get a radiator fitted underneath the engine between the crankcases and exhausts?, I know it sounds bizarre, but if you think about air cooled 4 strokes thats exactly what they do with them, fit them very low down, or even under the engine with air being directed through it using scoops/ducting, the other option is like the Benelli tornado and have the radiator mounted under the rear seat cowl
Another option could be to run a pipe (22mm or the likes) left to right across the front of the engine between the exhaust headers, just thoughts ?
HTH
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MT2
Feb 19, 2024 11:26:15 GMT 1
Post by urbantangleweed on Feb 19, 2024 11:26:15 GMT 1
do you have space to get a radiator fitted underneath the engine between the crankcases and exhausts?, I know it sounds bizarre, but if you think about air cooled 4 strokes thats exactly what they do with them, fit them very low down, or even under the engine with air being directed through it using scoops/ducting, the other option is like the Benelli tornado and have the radiator mounted under the rear seat cowl Another option could be to run a pipe (22mm or the likes) left to right across the front of the engine between the exhaust headers, just thoughts ? HTH Thanks again Dave, I've scratched my head more than you can imagine over this one!
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MT2
Feb 19, 2024 12:03:06 GMT 1
Post by muttsnuts on Feb 19, 2024 12:03:06 GMT 1
Thanks again Dave, I've scratched my head more than you can imagine over this one! be careful, you'll end up with a bald patch - that's how I got mine........
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Post by JonW on Feb 19, 2024 13:11:51 GMT 1
cooling is a balance, if it goes through the radiator too quickly then the engine will run hotter, if it lingers in the radiator too long then it can run too cold, but that is only part of the story, flow rate is important, but if your pump flows more than the radiator then you can get "buffetting" which causes hot spots as the water is effectively "backing up" at the radiator inlet, conversely if the flow rate is too slow then the engine can run hot as the cooler water isn't getting to the engine quickly enough The one area people miss all the time is the surface area of the radiator, that is more important than its capacity (to some degree), you need a big surface area, most LC's/Hybrids etc get this wrong, my simple test is to stand in front of the bike and look at the radiator, as a rule of thumb, whatever you can see of the radiator at its level is how much air will see it (leaving aero-dynamics out of it for now), so if the front wheel/mudguard and forks are covering 80% of the radiator then the chances are only the very outer edges of the radiator are actually cooling, the quick and easy fix for this is to make and fit some side scoops on the radiator to direct cold air over the centre of the radiator - testing on the dyno has shown between 6 and 8 degrees drop in temperature by doing this alone
HTH Hallelujah!!! Ive been saying this for years and still see normal width rads being sold as so called 'big rads'. more capacity isnt the fix... its worse with thick forks, fat wheels and tyres and wide front guard. Sure air 'flows' around all that, but not always in your favour. Of course there are some who break the rules and win with things like side mounted rads that work but none of us on here have the RnD dept to get that sort of stuff working well in our lifetime lol.
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Post by urbantangleweed on Feb 19, 2024 14:13:00 GMT 1
Thanks again Dave, I've scratched my head more than you can imagine over this one! be careful, you'll end up with a bald patch - that's how I got mine........ 🤣😂🤣
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MT2
Feb 19, 2024 18:55:39 GMT 1
via mobile
Tobyjugs likes this
Post by urbantangleweed on Feb 19, 2024 18:55:39 GMT 1
Today I set to making some larger rad scoops out of computer heatsink. Big as I could go allowing for clearance on the forks at full lock. I had some smaller ones on before and they did make a difference as not only do they help direct air towards the rad, but they also help dissipate some heat as they absorb heat from the rad and as such, provide extra surface area for getting rid of the heat. More work to do on these but for now, it's a matter of so far so good..... Oh, ignore the colour, they'll likely get anodised black once finalised.
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MT2
Feb 27, 2024 12:26:11 GMT 1
via mobile
Post by Tobyjugs on Feb 27, 2024 12:26:11 GMT 1
Had a play about with the cooling system this afternoon, not sure how viewable the image will be but here goes.... Good to see some data from testing. This was all done at tickover? What is the reason or thoughts for this? Will you also do the same tests with load?
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MT2
Feb 27, 2024 12:34:31 GMT 1
via mobile
Post by Tobyjugs on Feb 27, 2024 12:34:31 GMT 1
Today I set to making some larger rad scoops out of computer heatsink. Big as I could go allowing for clearance on the forks at full lock. I had some smaller ones on before and they did make a difference as not only do they help direct air towards the rad, but they also help dissipate some heat as they absorb heat from the rad and as such, provide extra surface area for getting rid of the heat. More work to do on these but for now, it's a matter of so far so good..... Oh, ignore the colour, they'll likely get anodised black once finalised. I have also made a scoop/shroud around the top of the radiator. This also helps yo direct air into the cooling area and stops it passing over the top of the radiato. Another loose plan I had for extra cooling if it was needed on one of my bikes was to fit a mini bike radiator in the Vee of a belly pan. I'm not sure if you could get away with that on this bike. Those radiators are also very cheap.
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Post by urbantangleweed on Feb 27, 2024 13:08:20 GMT 1
Had a play about with the cooling system this afternoon, not sure how viewable the image will be but here goes.... Good to see some data from testing. This was all done at tickover? What is the reason or thoughts for this? Will you also do the same tests with load? Yes, all tests done at tickover, mainly to provide a baseline reference. Similar tests with load will be carried out on the first shakedown (hopefully at the weekend).
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Post by urbantangleweed on Feb 27, 2024 13:12:57 GMT 1
Today I set to making some larger rad scoops out of computer heatsink. I have also made a scoop/shroud around the top of the radiator. This also helps yo direct air into the cooling area and stops it passing over the top of the radiato. Another loose plan I had for extra cooling if it was needed on one of my bikes was to fit a mini bike radiator in the Vee of a belly pan. I'm not sure if you could get away with that on this bike. Those radiators are also very cheap. I'd looked at a scoop on the top but given the very limited space, I'm not sure how much use it would be. I might investigate something like that later on but fitted under the bottom yoke which might have some helpful effect. I want to avoid extra radiators if at all possible as (other than the engine) I want to keep the finished article as faithful to the donor MT125 as possible.
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Post by Tobyjugs on Feb 27, 2024 13:51:15 GMT 1
Yes that's what I tried to say. The same as on Racing bikes a piece undeder the yokes. I have seen perpex fitted and when clean you have to look twice to recognise it. I totally agree the bike looks great as it is.
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MT2
Feb 27, 2024 20:49:26 GMT 1
Post by buck1963 on Feb 27, 2024 20:49:26 GMT 1
I've had cooling problems on my bike,its a lambretta with a 31k motor fitted,the radiator is inside a toolbox on the legshields and the motor is totally enclosed by panels,I tried putoline ice against what most people were saying and the bike now runs around 8 degrees cooler(I've got a digital temp gauge fitted to the head to keep an eye on it)
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Post by urbantangleweed on Feb 27, 2024 21:23:57 GMT 1
I've had cooling problems on my bike,its a lambretta with a 31k motor fitted,the radiator is inside a toolbox on the legshields and the motor is totally enclosed by panels,I tried putoline ice against what most people were saying and the bike now runs around 8 degrees cooler(I've got a digital temp gauge fitted to the head to keep an eye on it) Interesting. Snake oil that might actually work. I intend taxing MT2 on Friday and if the weather at the weekend is anything like decent, hopefully will give her a couple of local shakedown runs to see if the re-jigging of the cooling system has had any effect.
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Post by urbantangleweed on Mar 1, 2024 17:26:29 GMT 1
Gave one of Colins 3D printed oil/water pump covers a light going over with 1500 wet and dry, a rub with some grey scotchbrite, wiped it over with panel wipe then a couple of light coats of upol satin black. I think it looks great and matches in well with the satin black clutch cover. Oh, put some road tax on her this morning too.....
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Post by urbantangleweed on Mar 1, 2024 18:06:53 GMT 1
I've had cooling problems on my bike,its a lambretta with a 31k motor fitted,the radiator is inside a toolbox on the legshields and the motor is totally enclosed by panels,I tried putoline ice against what most people were saying and the bike now runs around 8 degrees cooler(I've got a digital temp gauge fitted to the head to keep an eye on it) Interesting. Snake oil that might actually work. I intend taxing MT2 on Friday and if the weather at the weekend is anything like decent, hopefully will give her a couple of local shakedown runs to see if the re-jigging of the cooling system has had any effect. I just ordered some of this, hopefully get to do some shakedown runs over the weekend with the regular 50/50 deionised water/ethylene glycol that's in the system now and make some notes, then drain it, flush it thoroughly and swap it for the Putoline snake oil to see if it's any different with that.
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Post by urbantangleweed on Mar 2, 2024 8:15:55 GMT 1
Not looking very promising for any shakedown runs today....
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Post by urbantangleweed on Mar 7, 2024 9:14:39 GMT 1
Well, yesterday was dry, a bit chilly at only 10°c but reasonable enough to get out and see how the re-jigged cooling system performs. I'm happy to say it does seem a lot better than before, of course the low ambient temperature will have helped, but the situation is indeed very promising. I've got some Putoline "Ice Cooler" magic coolant to try at some point too, I reckon it's snake oil but would be happy to be proven wrong. She's also now sporting a 3D printed water pump and clutch cover disc from Colin (reedx) which I've sprayed in satin black and I think they look great.
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Post by urbantangleweed on Mar 7, 2024 19:49:38 GMT 1
A minute of music played on the MT2 yesterday 😊
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Post by urbantangleweed on Mar 30, 2024 19:29:19 GMT 1
Seeing as it was the first decent day in a while today, I took the opportunity to do some coolant tests with MT2. Not exactly under what you might call scientific conditions, but the 3 runs of the same 15 mile circuit with 3 different coolants were ridden in a very similar manner and the ambient temperature was 14 degrees C throughout. Not sure if the picture below will be that readable, but as for Putoline Ice Cooler, well, as expected, it ain't. Fact is, the engine runs hotter with that in over plain old water. Was an interesting exercise but yeah, snake oil. From leaving home with the cooling fan switched off, I didn't switch it on until 12 miles later at checkpoint 8 on each run, checkpoint 8 to home is 3 miles and about 5 minutes mainly in 30 and 40mph speed limit roads. I can't really do much more with the cooling system, but at least I know the temperature is now manageable with the SPAL fan, and once home from the last run, I left the bike ticking over with the fan on and the temperature came down to 60 degrees C in about 5 minutes and held there, so the fan, although small, does do a decent job. So from this, and like Steve MLC said a while back, plain water is the best at dissipating heat. Of course, you can't just run plain water, so I reckon the best coolant mix will be de-ionised water with a third ethylene glycol mixed in to add antifreeze properties and inhibit corrosion.
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Post by JonW on Mar 31, 2024 0:45:09 GMT 1
Good testing, at least you know what youre dealing with and where its at now.
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