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Post by yamark on Oct 1, 2019 19:46:31 GMT 1
SDC11680
All will make sense when it's finished (I hope)
I can't wait that long .. have to ask how the two gears are going to get lubricated? Mark, the RG500 pump has its own oil seal as the drive shaft enters the pump body. The pump is lubricated internally by 2 stroke oil. So my gears have to be lubricated by the gearbox oil. I'll drill some holes through the clutch cover once I work out the oil level.
Great question mate
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Post by yamark on Oct 1, 2019 19:50:26 GMT 1
If you could double everything on the oil pump it would save me hassle m8. Are you going to Stafford this year as I'm taking my refinished 700 this year No worries mate, will do. I'm fairly sure I'll make Stafford, looking forward to seeing the changes you've made
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Post by yamark on Oct 6, 2019 19:49:45 GMT 1
Thanks lads, for all your questions and encouragement.
Oil pump part 2
So, the lower 20T gear will be driven by a modified LC worm drive (the worm gear will be cut off the shaft). The 25T gear will be fabricated on to the RG500 pump. I want to keep the pump as close to the clutch cover, so I can fit an oil pump cover without it looking to obvious it's been modded. The problem is the RG pump is tall and long and only just fits in the LC clutch cover.
I have to work backwards, pump drive first, then alignment to mesh the gears, the position of the gears in the ali housing (height), modify an LC drive and work out the correct height, then somehow get the control cable to miss the pump and operate the pump in a new direction.
This is the drive for the RG pump, showing the oil seal, (two stroke oil will be behind this seal).
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The aluminium plate I used to house the gears, was 10mm thick. I use 5mm mild steel plate as the pump mount and housing cover.
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Then a hole saw was used to cut the hole for the pump drive to fit through.
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The pump, in it's position
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The height of the pump is good, so I will get a standard oil pump cover to fit with a bit of modifying.
Everybody following
Cheers, Mark
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Post by donkeychomp on Oct 6, 2019 22:16:04 GMT 1
Ingenious. Love the Sunday updates Mark.
Alex
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Post by oldbritguy on Oct 7, 2019 0:45:11 GMT 1
Brilliant bit of engineering and problem solving Mark.
Absolutely loving this one and waiting with anticiption for your next update.
Cable run will be a breeze compared to what you have done so far.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2019 15:28:53 GMT 1
Hi Mark
That is a work of art
You are a very clever person, one and all are very envious of your capabilities and your ingenious solutions
Howard
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Post by JonW on Oct 8, 2019 0:03:55 GMT 1
Nice work, clever engineering at its best!
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Post by dusty350 on Oct 8, 2019 7:28:31 GMT 1
As far as I know, there are no other Lc triples or 4's running oil pumps, and there is a good reason for that ( it's very complicated !!) so the fact you have managed to work this out is truly amazing ! Shame that it will be hidden behind a cover, but 4 feed pipes exiting the casing will look trick !! Great work Mark Dusty
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Post by cbm on Oct 8, 2019 8:18:28 GMT 1
As far as I know, there are no other Lc triples or 4's running oil pumps, and there is a good reason for that ( it's very complicated !!) so the fact you have managed to work this out is truly amazing ! Shame that it will be hidden behind a cover, but 4 feed pipes exiting the casing will look trick !! Great work Mark Dusty The Boy does like a challenge
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Post by yamark on Oct 8, 2019 16:16:20 GMT 1
Cheers Alex, oldbritguy, Howard, Jon, Dusty and cbm
I've nearly finished work on the pump . The only part I've farmed out, is to my mate Dean (altering the drive on the RG pump), as the machining of the RG drive and fitting a post that is a very tight interference fit was best left to the experts. Apart from anything else, if any mistake is made, the pump is scrap. RG500 pumps sell from £80-£120 second hand.
I enjoy the challenge of doing something unique, and solutions pop into my head all the time. It's just logic to me, but thanks lads, for the kind words.
Dusty, I think your right - I'm the only one mad enough to fabricate a pump onto a multi LC. I've made patterns so I can duplicate everything I've done. Oh, and thanks for that scrap clutch cover Dusty, I've properly murdered it
Cheers, Mark
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Post by earthman on Oct 8, 2019 21:45:09 GMT 1
I enjoy the challenge of doing something unique, and solutions pop into my head all the time. It's just logic to me, but thanks lads, for the kind words.
How did you go about working out how much two stoke oil this beast will need in the first place? The RG pump were designed for a 500cc engine obviously but this beast will have an extra 200cc on top of that,....OK you have made gears/changed the ratios but how did you come to that? Working that lot out wouldn't be just logic to me.
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Post by jon on Oct 9, 2019 18:16:00 GMT 1
I enjoy the challenge of doing something unique, and solutions pop into my head all the time. It's just logic to me, but thanks lads, for the kind words.
How did you go about working out how much two stoke oil this beast will need in the first place? The RG pump were designed for a 500cc engine obviously but this beast will have an extra 200cc on top of that,....OK you have made gears/changed the ratios but how did you come to that? Working that lot out wouldn't be just logic to me. I did wonder that too. I’d have thought the gearing would have been the other way round to increase the flow to each cylinder? Jon
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Post by oldbritguy on Oct 9, 2019 22:51:12 GMT 1
How did you go about working out how much two stoke oil this beast will need in the first place? The RG pump were designed for a 500cc engine obviously but this beast will have an extra 200cc on top of that,....OK you have made gears/changed the ratios but how did you come to that? Working that lot out wouldn't be just logic to me. I did wonder that too. I’d have thought the gearing would have been the other way round to increase the flow to each cylinder? Jon Bottom of page 6 in the thread A clever bit of experimenting with pumps, drive speed and measuring jugs
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RD700LC
Oct 10, 2019 18:22:41 GMT 1
Post by yamark on Oct 10, 2019 18:22:41 GMT 1
Hi chaps, yes oldbritguy has the answer. My first job was to measure the pump outputs. I made a drive to fit the RG pump, but it had no output until I ran it in a reverse direction to the LC pump. The RG pump is driven from the gearbox (it is located on top of the crankcase from memory), so it was a surprise that the output was higher compared to the LC pump, it must spin at a slower speed than the LC. I think I'm right that the 250LC pumps the same volume as the 350LC, the 350 runs faster. I also measured a 350LC pump output.
So I calculated the speed (of the RG pump) to reduce the output, to match the LC350. Hence the reduction gears. I have a back up method of fine tuning the new output of the RG pump. I'm getting close to measuring the output volume of the new setup.
Another interesting thing, is the pump is the same on the RG500 and RG400! No difference at all, they are not marked differently and the operating lever is the same length. I find this very odd.
Can anyone shed light on this or an I missing something?
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Post by shaunthe2nd on Oct 10, 2019 20:32:49 GMT 1
Great thread this. I'm in awe.
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Post by yamark on Oct 13, 2019 18:09:11 GMT 1
Oil pump part 3
I touched on RG500 oil pumps last week and the fact they are not cheap. This is where I had a lot of luck, I bought the first pump ages ago on Ebay, it had a snapped oil outlet tube and so I didn't spend a lot on that purchase. Pump 2 came up a while later, with, wait for it- the drive key ground off! So I bought that for peanuts. Pump 3 was Stusco's misfortune, as his pump had a crack in the body on his RG400 (brilliant thread), Stu let me have the pump for a drink- top man .
Now in case your wondering why I need so many pumps, it's so I can make 2 good pumps out of the 3, and I can fit a pump to the triple (that runs on premix) as well as the 4 cylinder. I also didn't want to shell out loads of beer tokens on something that I wasn't sure would work.
The pump on the right was Stu's, I drilled the hole to remove the oil outlet. The pump on the left had the drive ground off. Sitting above the pumps are the 2 drives removed, ready to be converted to take the 25T gear. There is quite a lot of dismantling to get the drives out of the body, I also took time to work out how the pumps work.
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The plan is to have the ali housing plate welded in place, but as it's only 10mm thick I decide the best way to attach the steel cover plate, is by capturing bolts behind the ali housing, so I work out where the bolts will not foul the pump or my cable system. Then I drill the holes
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Then the holes are drilled through the housing
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Getting there, gradually
Cheers, Mark
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Post by yamark on Oct 20, 2019 17:52:34 GMT 1
Oil pump part 4
The ali housing is then countersunk to accept the 6mm screws. I still have to modify the head of the top screw so it will be flush.
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This is the reverse, showing how the 5mm steel cover will be attached to the gear housing
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This shows the superb work Dean has done on the RG500 drives, to convert them to accept the 25T gear. These shafts are an interference fit
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Finally, the gear in place
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Cheers, Mark
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Post by dusty350 on Oct 21, 2019 7:14:44 GMT 1
Genius !! No matter how many times you explain all this to me, I still look like a dog who has been shown a card trick !! Fantastic problem solving Dusty
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Post by Topman350 on Oct 22, 2019 1:07:08 GMT 1
Clever stuff this Mark 👍
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Post by yamark on Oct 27, 2019 18:58:54 GMT 1
Oil pump part 5 (it's sounding like war and peace)
Last week, the oil pump drive was sorted. To turn the 25T gear (on the oil pump), I need to fabricate a drive from the LC worm to a 20T gear.
First I cut the worm gear off a 250LC pump drive. I then work out how much to shorten the drive, and where the shoulder has to be machined to line up the gears. I then machine the dimensions needed
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Image of the gear fitted
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After measuring, I work out I need to make a recessed bush to - 1) make the gears line up 2) keep the height as low as possible as I want to keep the LC pump cover 3) support the shaft to the same dimensions as the standard set up
So I make the bush
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This pic shows the lip needed to sit in the clutch cover. The LC uses the plastic drive gear, that draws the drive inwards, so the lip on the bush stops the bush being pulled through the clutch case
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The clutch cover is then reamed out so the larger diameter "new bush" can replace the stock oil pump bush. No oil seal is needed, as the RG pump has an oil seal.
Everybody awake
Cheers, Mark
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Post by raven13 on Oct 27, 2019 19:50:53 GMT 1
Oil pump part 5 (it's sounding like war and peace)
Last week, the oil pump drive was sorted. To turn the 25T gear (on the oil pump), I need to fabricate a drive from the LC worm to a 20T gear.
First I cut the worm gear off a 250LC pump drive. I then work out how much to shorten the drive, and where the shoulder has to be machined to line up the gears. I then machine the dimensions needed
SDC11692
Image of the gear fitted
SDC11693
After measuring, I work out I need to make a recessed bush to - 1) make the gears line up 2) keep the height as low as possible as I want to keep the LC pump cover 3) support the shaft to the same dimensions as the standard set up
So I make the bush
SDC11694
This pic shows the lip needed to sit in the clutch cover. The LC uses the plastic drive gear, that draws the drive inwards, so the lip on the bush stops the bush being pulled through the clutch case
SDC11695
The clutch cover is then reamed out so the larger diameter "new bush" can replace the stock oil pump bush. No oil seal is needed, as the RG pump has an oil seal.
Everybody awake
Cheers, Mark
will admit you lost me as soon as you said oil pump, but I am loving the problem solving and engineering that has gone into it.
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Post by cbm on Oct 28, 2019 7:36:17 GMT 1
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Post by yamark on Nov 3, 2019 19:23:35 GMT 1
Oil pump Part 6
Last week, the last image was of the recessed bush made for the drive for the 20T gear (I'll call this the input shaft)
So, I reamed out the clutch case to fit the new larger bush
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Now that the input shaft is in place, I work out the pump position to allow the gears to mesh. I then mark the steel plate and drill and countersink the pump mount bolts
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An image from the reverse side showing the countersunk screws that will have to welded in place, as the will have to be oil tight
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Lastly, an image of the bush from the inside of the clutch cover
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So, the input shaft is in the same position as the standard LC shaft, so the standard plastic gear will drive it. The pump is now turning in reverse (the RG500 pump works in this direction only). The 500 pump should now output just 5% more than the 350 pump as it's been geared down. Gaskets to make, the gear housing (the ali part) needs to be welded internally to make it oil tight. I need to fabricate a pulley system for the oil pump cable to miss the 500 pump body
Not much more to do then!
I hope to cover it all in part 8
Cheers, Mark
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Post by donkeychomp on Nov 3, 2019 23:42:13 GMT 1
That looks so complicated Mark but you've figured it all out! I'd still be there scratching my head... will the standard plastic gear be strong enough?
Alex
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Post by mouse on Nov 4, 2019 8:06:42 GMT 1
As usual, this is amazing and as usual it has now given my feeble my brain an ache!!
Keep it up
Mouse
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Post by oldbritguy on Nov 4, 2019 23:04:12 GMT 1
Brilliant Mark A lot of thought gone into this one aspect of the build and hopefully it will be spot on. (I have no doubt it will ) It is one of those things though that will be totally missed by future admirers of this real special bike. Those in the know will spot it though Absolutley loving this build, keep up the great work. John
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Post by yamark on Nov 10, 2019 20:07:53 GMT 1
Oil Pump Part 7
Now that the pump is working at the right speed to give the correct output, my focus turns to operating it. The RG pump operating lever, hits the LC clutch cover, but just. So I carefully grind away the lever. I then convert a standard LC cable to accept the RG plastic cable adaptor, but know the route of the cable will be a challenging. To operate the new pump, I have to run the cable round a pulley to miss the pump body and to miss the new pump housing. I took this into account when I drilled the mounting screws into the steel cover plate.
So first up, I machine a post for the pulley
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I then, drill the steel plate for an interference fit, and install the new post
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Next, I make a spacer for the pulley wheel to sit on
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Final part next week
Cheers, Mark
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Post by morgy on Nov 10, 2019 20:29:39 GMT 1
Fecking tease...
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Post by earthman on Nov 10, 2019 20:47:49 GMT 1
Yeah, final part next week he said, no way he's finished the whole bike.
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jh002
L plate rider.
Posts: 37
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Post by jh002 on Nov 24, 2019 21:01:08 GMT 1
Thanks chaps for all your input/ encouragement/ ideas.
While the crankcases were away with Harry and Graham, I thought I'd get some of the work on the frame done. The guy that spread and welded the triple frame has retired, but then last year Jon made a jig and spread an LC frame. So a couple of phone calls and Jon kindly agreed to do the work for me.
Jon, is very meticulous and spotted the side stand bracket was at an odd angle, so he said he'd sort that as well as add some tie bar brackets to my early pre-tie bar frame. I also wanted the side stand spring post moved to the outside, and some extra bracing near the lower cross mount.
Jon kindly took these images as he worked.
Side stand bracket - drunk, and removed
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Jon then made a new post to take the Triumph side stand
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Welded back on
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I'll post up the jig and the frame spread next week.
Just a little tease of the 4 cylinder crankcases - you can see the outrigger section is from a YPVS, so that sorts the clutch actuation. At this point, I want to say a big thankyou to Matt (Yogi) who supplied this section of crankcase, your a star mate
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I cant promise to post every week, as life is very busy at the moment.
Thanks for following chaps,
Cheers, Mark
Is there a disorderly queue for welding crankcases? You’ve got me interested in doing similar after I finish the 31K.
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