iainw
Drag-strip hero
Posts: 289 
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Post by iainw on Nov 7, 2011 13:32:43 GMT 1
This is my LC a couple of weeks ago and I'm not sure what it looks like now but it needs a bit of patching up. I'd been out on it yesterday to do a Yarkshir Dales run, about 120 miles for me, had a cracking afternoon but the sun was going down and I was getting a bit cold so decided to do the last stretch home on the motorway. Was in lane 3 and felt a slight loss of power, thinking it's a bit soon to go on reserve but went to flick it over and the bugger siezed solid! Just managed to grab the bar again and wrestle with it sliding from side to side when it eventually spat me off. It's a miracle I'm still alive, the recent m'way crashes that have been in the news brought it right home and the doctor at A&E said they'd dealt with six motorcylist that day and I walked out of there with only a sprained wrist. Soooo lucky. So hey ho, I've now got a bike in some form or another that needs a bit of tlc. One thing I do know that needs sorting is the motor, who do we recommend to fix it up and what's the best way to package it if it needs to go to a far corner of the UK? I'm in Preston btw. Attachments:
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Post by andygraham on Nov 7, 2011 14:54:40 GMT 1
Heart in mouth time!
Glad your ok
Any word on the bike?
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Post by jonnyboybon on Nov 7, 2011 16:13:42 GMT 1
Grampian motors in crosby not that far from you they do rebores and cranks you could drop it off if you gonna do the spannering yourself
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iainw
Drag-strip hero
Posts: 289
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Post by iainw on Nov 7, 2011 17:40:10 GMT 1
Got it back this afternoon, damage down the RHS, nothing too serious apart from scrapes on the crank case around the clutch housing and it needs a new pipe, the engine turns over but there's hardly any compression. That'll be the big bill. Insurance say they'll pay for the crash damage but the seizure is a mechanical so I'll need to fund that. As I've said I'll repair it they've asked me to get prices and send them off before an assessor will come.
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iainw
Drag-strip hero
Posts: 289
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Post by iainw on Nov 7, 2011 17:54:26 GMT 1
Grampian motors in crosby not that far from you they do rebores and cranks you could drop it off if you gonna do the spannering yourself Thanks, I'd feel comfortable doing a top end but I think this'll need more than that. I'm not going to do anything with it untill I get an agreement with the insurance on a figure. Then I'll pull the barrels and see what in there. |
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Post by atomicstroker on Nov 7, 2011 19:06:20 GMT 1
Which preston are you? lancashire?
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Post by atomicstroker on Nov 7, 2011 19:07:03 GMT 1
Which preston are you? lancashire?
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Post by gillybobs on Nov 7, 2011 19:17:14 GMT 1
I had the same thing happen to me but for some reason i pulled the clutch in and the bike stayed upright and i rolled onto edge of the road.
Never been so scared in my life! Back wheel locked solid doing about 70!
Turned out what was wrong with my bike was that the autolube had some muck in the bottom of it and when the bike was on full throttle the pump could not move its full amount therefor not pumping enough oil to the engine. It had nipped on one cylinder right at the bottom of the bore so i've so for got away with replacing the piston and rings and just cleaning the bottom of the bore up.
Good luck with sorting your bike out.
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chez
Thrash Merchant
Posts: 336
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Post by chez on Nov 7, 2011 20:10:05 GMT 1
Grampian motors in crosby not that far from you they do rebores and cranks you could drop it off if you gonna do the spannering yourself Thanks, I'd feel comfortable doing a top end but I think this'll need more than that. I'm not going to do anything with it untill I get an agreement with the insurance on a figure. Then I'll pull the barrels and see what in there. Does it hace chrome horns if so i so you going down the a6 a couple of weeks ago iam in leyland preston |
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iainw
Drag-strip hero
Posts: 289
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Post by iainw on Nov 8, 2011 1:04:40 GMT 1
Thanks, I'd feel comfortable doing a top end but I think this'll need more than that. I'm not going to do anything with it untill I get an agreement with the insurance on a figure. Then I'll pull the barrels and see what in there. Does it hace chrome horns if so i so you going down the a6 a couple of weeks ago iam in leyland preston That's me! Attachments:
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Post by barbarossa on Nov 8, 2011 12:38:09 GMT 1
Like the late, great Ralph Venables said " That's 2-strokes for you - always causing trouble for somebody somewhere ".
Seriously, isn't it time we accepted 2-strokes are compromised due to their lubrication systems ?
I've always had no trouble with premix machines, but anything with an oil-pump ( with the exception of a Suzuki Hustler I had nearly 40 yrs ago ) has always given me grief. Even if there was no actual failure of the pump, I just don't think the pumps are up to the job of supplying enough oil at prolonged high-speed runs or a full-throttle thrash. I don't think enough oil is getting through to the engine - simple as that.
Or is that a 2% petroil mix is inadequate ?
Is this incredibly small amount of oil ( 2 parts in a hundred ) really sufficient for a high revving engine or is it more likely that the manufacturers decided on that figure as a sop to the emissions laws and environmentalists rather than as a truly accurate measure of what lubrication the engine REALLY needs ?
I recall my son putting a 4% ( 25/1 ) mix in his Honda CR125 MX bike and NEVER having any seizures or even "nip-ups". His best pal at the time campaigned a Suzuki RM125 and also ran at 25/1 mix and he never had any problems either.
I had a 1978 Suzuki TS185 some 20yrs ago when I was in the TRF and twice it seized up. Once the pump actually broke and leaked out all the oil and the second time it just seized - no leaks, no mechanical failure - it just seized up. Because, I believe, the pump was inadequate for the job and/or a 50-1 petrol-oil mix is inadequate.
After the next rebuild, I removed the pump and oil-tank and blanked off the oil way with an aluminium plate. I went up one size on the main jet and ran a 33-1 ( 3% ) premix. I had no more trouble with that engine and when I sold it three yrs later, I sold it with confidence to a fellow TRF member - who was still running that bike FIVE yrs later and had had NO problems.
My main machine at the moment ( until my RZ250 engine is rebuilt - oil pump cable snapped ) is a Cagiva Mito Evo which has oil injection directly into the crankcase - a much better system than the RD/RZ models with the oil fed into the carbs. But I still put a capful of pre-mix into the fuel tank - just to be sure !
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Post by stanlc7189 on Nov 10, 2011 22:56:40 GMT 1
....mmmmmm! Plenty of food for thought here. I just don't have the confidence in my bike to go on a prolonged motorway ride, much as though I would love to.
The strange fact is that on my first 350LC in 1981, I never did anything other than top up the oil tank. I went to Yugoslavia and back, two-up, cruising for several hours at a stint at 80-100 on the German autobahns without ANY problems. The word 'premix' was not in my dictionary.
So, WTF is going on? Are the pumps just too old now and don't deliver? Should we all be converting to premix?
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Post by ivymike on Nov 11, 2011 0:09:31 GMT 1
I took my tuned ypvs from harrogate to the northwest 200 and back with no problems on autolube all way between 70 & 100 on motorways. as said think a lot of it is 30 yr old oil pumps.
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iainw
Drag-strip hero
Posts: 289
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Post by iainw on Nov 11, 2011 0:27:06 GMT 1
Thanks for all the replies. I'm thinking the 15 miles on the m'way was a leisurly cruise at around 6k-7k rpm, and I kept shutting off. Maybe if I'd opened it up wide a few times that'd have given it more oil? Hey ho.
I'll check that none return valve though! Thanks for the tip.
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Post by stanlc7189 on Nov 11, 2011 18:40:43 GMT 1
I never knew about the non-return valves either. Thanks for the tip butchers! Have you got any more regarding oil / lubrication? I want to get this bike to the point where I am not just waiting on every single ride for it to go bang! I broke a crank in June and virtually everything apart from the gearbox components is new. If it blows up again, it'll be" hasta la vista, baby! thanks for the memory, now FO!!"
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Post by mellow on Nov 11, 2011 19:14:43 GMT 1
goto the technical section m8 and there is a post with pictures of the oil pump return valves and how to change the seals in the pump for under about £7  |
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Post by wizard on Nov 11, 2011 20:37:09 GMT 1
going to do my oil pump after hearing ur horror stories  |
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Post by stanlc7189 on Nov 13, 2011 19:27:20 GMT 1
Cheers Butchers. You're a star!
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Post by midlifecrisisrd on Nov 13, 2011 23:06:29 GMT 1
Have just rebuilt my pump as per Niks thread in the technical section as I was worried about this on my new build.
Will also be going 1 jet size over and adding a little oil to the tank to be sure and stop the bloody tank rusting.
Steve
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Post by stanlc7189 on Nov 13, 2011 23:10:22 GMT 1
You can get 'oil pump repair kits' from Yambits.co.uk. They are pricey though at £17 but they do include all bolts and screws(not that you'd need them). I'm not sure whether Norbo does them - couldn't find them on his website.
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Post by singlespinner on Nov 14, 2011 0:44:21 GMT 1
I've just replace all the seals in my pump got all the parts and know how from Steve at The Two-stroke shop...the hardest part of the job was finding a 3.5mm socket This should be all you need to do the job www.rzrd500.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5067&start=0Cheers |
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Post by arrow on Nov 27, 2011 21:22:48 GMT 1
I have found a big problem with the pumps is that people don't check the stroke often enough. The pump can wear quite a bit on the outside (between the screw/pin and the pulley. This will reduce the oil at most speeds except full throttle.
Also I have heard people say you can run less oil nowadays 'cos its better stuff. Not a good idea, infact I run more of the good stuff as it is so clean burning you can get away with it and the engine loves it.
Those who think the oil pump is not upto the job; at full bore the pump supplies oil to the motor at about 20:1 equivalent. At full bore thats a lot of oil, approx 240ml every 25 miles.
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Post by barbarossa on Nov 27, 2011 23:21:10 GMT 1
The pump may supply oil at 20:1 at full bore WHEN IT'S NEW. How about when it's 30yrs old ? Or when it's not correctly adjusted ? Or if the non-return valve is blocked ? Or, as in my case, the oil-pump cable snaps and the pump therefore stops working. And what about the difference in the supply to each cylinder due to the distance from the pump ? - The offside carburettor is nearer the pump than the nearside one. I reckon the oil has to travel 7 inches further to reach the nearside carburettor than the offside one. Surely two pumps should be fitted to give an equal supply to each carb ? - ie., one pump per carb. I just don't believe these pumps are up to the job they are supposed to do - they have to pump a quite viscous fluid over two totally different distances and unless they are perfectly set-up and in A1 condition, they cannot do that job perfectly - especially at high rpm. If you have ever disconnected an oil-feed line and seen the amount of oil that is emitted, you'll realise it is not a large amount. I think the number of seizures that occur on these machines prove my point - and it's always the nearside cylinder that seizes, or seizes first. My RZ won't start - compression is supposed to be 120psi per cylinder I have been told. My offside cylinder has 80psi - in other words, it's lost 33% of it's compression. My nearside cylinder has 60psi - so it's lost 50% of it's compression. Surely if the oil supply was the same to each cylinder, the compression would be the same , even after engine damage  - I think not - I believe the nearside cylinder suffered more damge than the offside one because it was getting LESS OIL. Maybe these pumps worked perfectly during factory testing, before the machines were actually launched back in the 80s. Maybe with factory mechanics checking and adjusting after each test session and much bench-testing in laboratory conditions, Yamaha were convinced the oil-supply was adequate and the pumps up to the job. Manufacturers DO make errors - think CX500 cam chains, VR750F valve adjustment, plasma-sprayed discs in the 70s, the fragility of Suzuki's power-valves on the RGV range, camshafts running directly in aluminium heads as per Honda's XL125/185. There's many more, I'm sure. Perhaps these oil pumps are another - seemed ideal during a certain amount of ( limited ? ) bench testing, but were proved simply not adequate in "real-world" use. Like I've posted before - if pumps were so much better than premix, how come racers ran/run premix Whatever - when my RZ is rebuilt, the oil-pump, tank and lines are coming off and it's running on 33/1 fully-synthetic premix and a MAXIMUM 80% throttle opening. No doubt I'll be shot down in flames, but I believe oil-injection was more to do with meeting Californian emission laws than actually giving the engine the amount of oil it needs. |
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Post by arrow on Nov 27, 2011 23:33:51 GMT 1
You have some really good points there, however the pump is not pumping a very viscous liquid, only when cold. Have you ever felt the temp. of the pump body when the engine is upto full temp. The oil is piss thin inside the pump, believe me.
I would not suggest for one minute that a pump in poor condition can do a proper job, however the amount of wear inside the pump is F A, virtually nil infact. Yamaha did indeed reduce the pump flow between the A,B and E,F models for emission reasons, but they realised the mistake and increased it again with the Lc models, plus by then the oils were getting better.
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Post by stanlc7189 on Nov 27, 2011 23:41:50 GMT 1
The fact that one carb is further away than the other makes no difference. Once the lines are pressurized, it's the same pressure throughout and therefore the same oil flow. A bit like your hydraulic brake lines, both calipers get the same hydraulic pressure regardless of the fact that one is further from the master cylinder. The flow of oil depends on the fluid pressure and diameter of feed pipe. Therefore, if correctly bled, both cylinders receive exactly the same amount of oil flow.
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Post by arrow on Nov 27, 2011 23:48:04 GMT 1
The fact that one carb is further away than the other makes no difference. Once the lines are pressurized, it's the same pressure throughout and therefore the same oil flow. A bit like your hydraulic brake lines, both calipers get the same hydraulic pressure regardless of the fact that one is further from the master cylinder. The flow of oil depends on the fluid pressure and diameter of feed pipe. Therefore, if correctly bled, both cylinders receive exactly the same amount of oil flow. Very true mate. The only exception I can think of is diesel injection pipes (the old type) have you ever wondered why they snake around as they do ? The answer is to make them all the same length, the reason is if they were different lengths this would affect the timing (which is fuel controlled of course) this is the only reason. The exact timing of the 2T oil pipes by a few miliseconds is unimportant, of course. |
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Post by Norbo on Nov 29, 2011 13:27:01 GMT 1
Im so sorry to hear about this spill . you are lucky but im glad to see your not gowing all thats it with bikes crap that some people say when falling of . I neen you dont fined a horse rider saying that when they al of and i know a few with a lot more broken bones then the bikes i know .
Any way if you get the crank and barrels to me mate idl do you a speciel price on fixing it all as your a memeber on hear and im sure the rest of the bike will cost a far bit to fix so if i can help with part ill do mt best for you .
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iainw
Drag-strip hero
Posts: 289
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Post by iainw on Dec 2, 2011 14:53:09 GMT 1
Im so sorry to hear about this spill . you are lucky but im glad to see your not gowing all thats it with bikes crap that some people say when falling of . I neen you dont fined a horse rider saying that when they al of and i know a few with a lot more broken bones then the bikes i know . Any way if you get the crank and barrels to me mate idl do you a speciel price on fixing it all as your a memeber on hear and im sure the rest of the bike will cost a far bit to fix so if i can help with part ill do mt best for you . Hi Norbo, Thanks, when I bought this bike I got a bit of stick from a work mate about old bikes and two strokes. I just laughed it off telliing him it's part of it, thrash it, trash it, rebuild it, and thrash it again! ;D Well, it happened and so what, I went down the road, lot's of people die in bed, it doesn't meean you shouldn't go there. You've already been extremely helpful in supplying all of the replacements for the bashed up bits and I thank you for your excellent service. All I need now are pipes and a rebuild. I've got an order in with Kenny for a set of stainless TSA pipes and I'm off to Harrogate tomorrow to see Mick Abbey about a rebuild and possibly a road tune. I'm OK taking a few screws out and swapping a part, but an engine rebuild is a step too far for me and I'd rather leave that to an expert. |
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Post by Norbo on Dec 2, 2011 19:43:20 GMT 1
I would'nt worry about doing the engin mate they are so simple to work on.
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Post by stanlc7189 on Dec 3, 2011 0:28:18 GMT 1
Ianw
Seriously, these engines pull apart and fit together like a Lego set. There are hardly any parts to them. Rotor puller, torque wrenches, clutch holding tool and a dial caliper (to check timing) and a decent set of sockets and off you go and you'll easy save the cost of the tools several times over. Have a go mate - it's a doddle!
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- I think not - I believe the nearside cylinder suffered more damge than the offside one because it was getting LESS OIL.