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Post by jon on Feb 5, 2017 18:23:49 GMT 1
Jon, it's really interesting why we are both doing this. I think it's for subtly different reasons?
I understand you want to make your frame less flexible for your 421. I can imagine driving it in anger meant the frame twisted about a lot. Not dangerously if your used to it, but an acquired taste.
I'm doing mine as exercise it trying to find how far you can go to improve the ride of an LC compared to a modern bike. I have no illusions that it will no be as good, but want to try and get near (if possible).
I remember well driving to my local Honda dealer when the 95' CBR600 came out. I'd booked a test drive, and remember abusing it thoroughly in the hour I was given. On returning it I had to fill out a form saying what I thought of it. I remember saying the mirrors were crap, and I'd have preferred it if they had left the previous engine (jelly mould) in the new frame.
What I didn't expect was the drive home on my YPVS. I had not noticed on the way there, but on the way back the frame was obviously flexing all over the place!
Jon
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Post by JonW on Feb 6, 2017 1:25:55 GMT 1
Youre right there are subtle differences but actually I think we're much closer on the main reason as deep down its all about how it performs on the road for both of us. My 421 is a lot more powerful than the old LC motor, thats true, but its the road manners where I also want to improve the 'hinge' that the LC frame essentially is, especially as Im running modern front and rear ends which are very planted and put more stress into the old frame, but also serve to highlight its failings. I will agree that these frames when standard are not dangerous as such, they just could be improved as we are finding. There are a lot of welds than werent completed and just doing those would help, like the old rally car trick of seam welding the body where it was originally only spotted by the factory. I also have a similar story to you. In 1997 I let my then girlfriend have my ypvs and I bought a ZX6R which felt heavier but much faster but had great handling and wonderful brakes right out the box. In 2001 I did a deal on an R1 and traded the ypvs in and she got the 6R. I hadnt ridden the ypvs for a few years but hopped on it to go collect the R1 (from Whites in Swindon for those with good memories). Anyway, the ride to the shop was a bit freaky. I intended to ride the ypvs like i stole it but I couldnt... there was so much information coming back at me from all over the bike, and little of it felt good. The forks were diving and wobbly, the brakes were iffy and the connection to the rear end felt like it had some bolts undone somewhere, the engine felt like it was a bit much for the frame; all the opposite of my 6r... so I pottered to the shop. On the way home the brand new R1 felt like a normal bike in comparison lol Amusingly as an aside the girlfriend never gelled with the 6r. she found it too fast and it tipped in harder than she liked and she mourned the sale of the RD. oops I loved it when i upgraded, ahh well. I think she just didnt have enough riding time under her belt to appreciate it really. So yes I am after a frame that will take the grunt of my 421 and the forces from the suspension mods, but also trying to modernise the old LC frame a bit too, or at least provide some 'more modern thinking' wrt what Yamaha did next. I also have no illusions that it will behave like an alloy extruded perimeter frame, but the more you look the more you can see where Yamaha cut some corners in production. That's not to say its a bad frame, but they did just about what they needed to do and little more. When you look at the ypvs frame next to the LC you can see they deemed that not only would they use some of their lessons learned from racing, but also they realised they need to improve the design even if only to contain the ypvs' 25% more power... even tho the tyres, suspension and brakes were much the same as the LC. I'll be interested to see if as we progress how yours differs from mine in the details as there will be a point where we get to the 'optional' and 'lesser' improvements. I reckon Im already at the point where what im doing could be debated ad-infinitum. eg. the 'cup' and the new spars across where the airbox sits will have raised some eyebrows i'm sure, whereas the gussets and welding done initially may have simply been given the nod etc. But its not like either of us are banging these mods out, I know how much time ive spent just standing and staring, imagining how the suspension works on the frame in use and how the engine and other stresses work during that etc. Some of what ive taken days working on might net a lesser improvement than a simple bit of extra welding but I wouldnt have done it if i didnt see the value... I actually really do need this frame to be finished so I can snatch the frame out of my 421 to build my resto LC! Whats also interesting is that the lads at the 'shop have started to comment that where ive strengthened the obvious weak areas, Ive now moved the stresses into the previously strong areas and that while the overall limitations have improved, without upgrading those areas i'm not getting the full benefit of some of the mods. My problem there of course is that I am bounded by the bodywork, engine and other things so cannot improve everything, but do I even need to I wonder? Its not like im going backwards, ie. adding a 100% improvement in 80% of the frame just means the remaining areas that were say previously 50% stronger than the other parts are now the weakest link(s), so the argument is that im still 50% stronger than before. Of course testing that weakness on the road will be interesting, but only if I ever reach its limits, you never know it may never get to that in road riding, perhaps 50% more was all I needed etc. NB - percentages were just examples and I dont have any actual idea without destructive testing this and a normal frame of course, if i were a manufacturer Id do that, but im only doing one frame... this one is taking long enough! LOL!
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Post by KevtheRev on Feb 6, 2017 10:49:25 GMT 1
Yeah Im not really seeing how that would add much strength to the frame really as you say, its not really helping the pivot or the shock mount or the headstock or joining any of those parts together, just stoppin the attached 'rear subframe' stay in position a bit batter, maybe he was a fatty and worried it might snap off LOL! Yeah , just look for any "Team Jacomo Racing" stickers , lol .
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Post by paulincayman on Feb 7, 2017 22:05:50 GMT 1
Still following this with great interest.. the parts for my 385 are arriving from various locations...looking forward to some definitive results from you frame gurus.. perhaps you could put a plan and pattern kit together once you're satisfied with the results.. Keep up the good work!!! Paul
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Post by JonW on Feb 7, 2017 22:15:47 GMT 1
Thanks Paul. Interestingly the lads in the workshop suggested making a kit or even offering this as a work job. I considered what they suggested... One issue is that while having parts like the outer swinger pivot plates cut with a laser would work out well. Im less sure about the bobbins as for example Jon's and my frame differ in the dimensions of these. I reckon if youre getting into work like this that youve probably got some other plan on how you want parts to work and probably some other mods etc. Another example is that I cut 15mm off my ypvs swinger pin, Jon used every bit of his as he had widened the frame, and making custom bobbins would slow the process and cost more. I also am not using the OEM airbox, but I bet other people are, and my mods run right through where that used to go. The problem if you offered a full service to make and weld the parts in is the number of hours you take vs those you'd be able to charge for as this work takes way longer than anyone would expect. For sure this is a passion project, not a business idea. It has to be said that I just cant quite imagine what I'd owe my mate Nick for his efforts on the welding on this one at his hourly rate. The frame has fought him all the way with oils that leach out, naff steel and also we were talking yesterday and Im now wondering if I didnt help by coating it in some kind of rust primer that seems to have permeated the steel, even tho its blasted. All of this crap spoils the welds. It should also be noted that the frame also needs blasting and very few people (Nick's workshop included) has a blasting cabinet large enough for a whole bike frame. All that and let alone my own time working out what's needed and fabricating the smaller parts and cross bracing (yet to come in this thread). So, I reckon this thread might well be my legacy to those wanting to do similar work - At least anyone doing it gets the benefit of mine and Jon's thoughts and pics of what we did for free that way.
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Post by JonW on Feb 8, 2017 12:55:06 GMT 1
For those wondering about the 'cup' ive mentioned. This it it: My plan was to box it fully: Still needs welding in once Ive blasted that area clean.... What can also bee seen in those pics are what i call the 'arm pits'. These are the inner surfaces of where the tubes are welded to the headstock. These will also be welded fully of course before this plating goes in. Here it is in all its, er, 'glory'...
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Post by paulincayman on Feb 8, 2017 13:14:07 GMT 1
Jonw, Thanks for the explanation, you're right about the passion project..been into a couple of those , it's the detail that makes it work that steals the time. I was intrigued how you produced those double sided gussets with the radius, did you start with bent tube and add sides or is it all one pressing ? Did you need to alter the brake mount or gear lever? Paul
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Post by JonW on Feb 8, 2017 22:04:07 GMT 1
Paul, if you mean the triangular shaped gussets? these: ... then they were actually stolen from a YPVS frame I had previously cut up and were lying round my garage. Of course unpicking them from the old frame and then cutting and making them fit the LC frame was more than just 'drop in' but they do fit well and look very OEM. In the pics I posted yesterday you can see we haven't welded up the part where these sit behind the rad mounts yet, we needed a different tip on the TIG for that, but may just MIG it actually... the worry was that it might pull those rad mounts back a little when cooling, but to be honest that isn't a huge problem for my setup as my 421 runs a custom rad mount and a YFZ rad and I can mess with that setup to get things level if they did move at all - which i doubt they would considering they're welded solidly on the other sides as well as that side under the gusset, but my mate Nick (who is restoring an LC himself) is being careful as ever. No changes to the brake or gear levers with my setup. I run Raask rearsets, but the OEMs would work fine. I assume you mean the outer swinger plates might be the issue here? if so, then no... The frame is really quite inboard at these points and the pedals stick out much further. Im so glad I have the 421 still as a 'whole bike' at this point and can refer to it before I do work as I always worry about adding stuff that will be in the way, well thats is until I saw the gaps and realised just how much room there is around the frame in so many places.
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Post by paulincayman on Feb 8, 2017 23:12:26 GMT 1
Not at home for a few days so can't check ,but recall thinking at the time how close the end of the pivot was to the brake lever..Will look again once home.
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Post by JonW on Feb 9, 2017 0:58:40 GMT 1
Not at home for a few days so can't check ,but recall thinking at the time how close the end of the pivot was to the brake lever..Will look again once home. Put up a pic if you think its close, I dont run OEMs so not an issue for me of course. Having a look at some pics, it looks like it wont be an issue as the pedal sits below the pivot. Some models of OEM LC pivot also have a bleed nipple on both ends, the YPVS does not of course, and you could always blank it and replace the nipple when greasing etc. ...and no issues the other side at all:
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Post by JonW on Feb 9, 2017 1:28:06 GMT 1
To be honest, I'm surprised no one has commented about the armpits?! I was amazed to find that Yamaha had left these unwelded. This is responsible for a vast amount of strength in the headtsock thats gone to waste imho. People have often plated the outside of these tubes to strengthen this area, but Ive never heard of anyone doing this work. If you have a bare frame handy, I urge you to look it over and see just how little of the tubes are actually welded to the headstock if you dont weld these inner 'pits, leading to obvious flexing under load I reckon. See how little weld the lower tube got form the factory, amazing... ...and the cup plate is the worst fit ever if you look at the side of it vs the headstock, someone spent ages making it fit the rails, but not the headstock at all LOL
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Post by bare on Feb 9, 2017 2:15:19 GMT 1
Good you found it :-) Although in truth any joint Flexing would manifest in cracked welds (the ones red circled) Personally, I haven't seen such. That said: Yama San has History of being frugal.. where it Don't show. Even to the point of reducing (foolishly imo) ground circuits in his Looms. PS: swinger axle grease nipple is a non problem.. non issue.
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Post by veg on Feb 9, 2017 11:48:11 GMT 1
I am really interested in this thread and the work that is taking place on the frames. It has just highlighted the inadequacy of the standard frame and has got me really thinking about my own frame. Had i not already paid out for it to be painted I probably would have had some remedial work done to it (unfortunately I cannot weld and my brother that is an ex fabricator lives 250 miles away) I dont think though that I will have the same issues or stresses present in mine as I am not going down the big bore route nor modern running gear. I am having a TZ700 top end so not likely to be anywhere near the performance of your bikes and whilst I am running a WP rear shock I am using LC2 forks with progressive springs, and Honda RS125 magensium race wheels these though are still skinny 18 inch wheels with a single 320mm disc so I am overall increasing the performance and reducing unsprung weight I cannot imagine that I will get close to the issues that you are all facing. Time will no doubt tell and as I no longer run a 'modern bike' I won't have a comparison to compare it to,infact my LC will probably compare favourably to my other bike (2016 Harley sportster sportster).
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Post by JonW on Feb 10, 2017 22:29:46 GMT 1
Well as I think I said, Yamaha did a good job of containing the power of the LC in these frames, enough that they lasted 35 years without cracking or breaking, tho they do feel a bit 'springy' on the bum dyno LOL! so thats not an issue and I thank them for what they did, tho they did cut some corners for sure and I bet they would agree with that when pushed. However, with more power and better rubber/suspension I think we will start to see some cracking of those welds, eg. I know of a local guy who cracked engine mounts with his 385. But no, with standard LC power and OEM running gear you dont 'need' to do this at all. Im certainly not advocating people 'must' do this work at all, just putting up my experiences for my application.
ok... No pics today, the top rails are now in, just got to sort out my cross bracing from some curved tubes... But it was 44DegC here yesterday and today will be 45. In the workshop thats way over 50 and the fabrication bench is on the sunny side of the building. I spent yesterday breaking revcounter needles, but lets not go there... more on this next week.
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Post by bare on Feb 11, 2017 19:49:30 GMT 1
Hey! it was / is 44 degrees ..F.. here, on the wet coast of Canada:-) I too, hate the Yama clocks/needles some are seemingly welded on while others fall off. No telling which, until they snap.
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Post by JonW on Feb 11, 2017 22:58:24 GMT 1
I'd swap for the same in Deg F... hahha yeah, lets not talk about the needles, im still gutted about it.
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Post by JonW on Feb 15, 2017 4:21:04 GMT 1
Ok, progress is made and the new upper rails are in. Sadly, no pics of these completed yet but I did have some pics of the tacked in parts on my phone. Rails run over the middle of the large X made by the frame rails as veiwed from the side, and yes they are right through where the airbox used to sit – I dont use one. They tie in the top of the shock mount to the headstock as well as strengthening the middle of the crossed parts. ....and I also fitted an ‘X’ of bracing between them to stop any flexing using two lightly curved bits of YPVS frame, which join the opposite sides and also are welded to eachother where they clasp round eachother. The red parts are from my old YPVS frame of course, which these rails were also made from. The rails with their flattened ends came from the rear subframe under the seat. Its nice to reuse OEM yamaha made parts on this as you get an OEM look to the finish. Ive also filled in these ‘holes’, which are like the bloke who made the ‘cup’ that sits under the rails used a bit of steel that wasn’t the right size or something. And here are those cup parts I showed earlier being test fitted just prior to being tacking in, tho the 'armpits' were welded up first of course. All of these are now welded in. We used the MIG in the end, the splatter from the TIG was too much to bare and was messing up the tips. MIG is a bigger hammer and cares less about the make up of the steel, plus it meant I could do some of the work myself. The shop MIG makes mine look like a kids toy, and produces much better welds. Proof, were it needed, that better tools create a better job. Tho has to be said, the welds look more OEM now too LOL I've just got to do some last minute gussets for the top rails where they join the headstock and Im done. Then its off to the frame straightener to make sure its right and onto paint.
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Post by bare on Feb 15, 2017 5:32:39 GMT 1
Actually those DIY welds don't look too bad. Yama oem ones aren't exactly exemplary. Curiously best welds I've seen onna Bike are those on my 600RR. Absolutely perfect work. Only seem similar work on a Bell Helicopter. Clearly someone dialed in the Honda weld robot.. perfectly. Those twin tubes reinforcing the Shock mount are curious additions (Tank still fit?) I see that there are cross pieces going in (bits of red pipe) Wonder if a trellis type arrangement in ducati or birdcage stlye, say in 1/2" tubes might directly tie in/reinforce the two main frame tubes? All this reinforcing is may ? make the swinger pivot seem like it's bedded in Jello. Possible to 'X' under the engine cradle? Suppose that the real danger is to slowly turn the frame into the Bismark.
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Post by JonW on Feb 15, 2017 5:58:47 GMT 1
The TIG welds were very problematical to be honest as I said a couple of times throughout, im amazed they are as good as they are really. The frame just didnt like the Tig at all. The MIG welds were cleaner if larger. I've some some lovely welds on alloy bits of bike, but sadly few on steel. Amusingly in the pics above you ca see where Yamaha added the tube that runs under the seat, and where it joined the frame it wasnt a good fit, so rather than redo it, they just welded it in abouy 5-7mm out of whack. Thats standard LOL!
Some mini trellis would be good, but there is only so much room to add, those red links were done for that reason and the arrangement of that whole top tube section with the new spars above is very strong now. Haha, of course the tank still fits. It was tested often and there is a mass of room under an LC tank to be honest, they could have made the capacity much bigger by sorting that out.
The swinger pivot is solidly mounted now (see the earlier pages), but yes there is always a risk that the rest of the frame is now the floppiest link in the chain. An X underneath would be cool, but really the one that would be nice would be where the shock and lower part of the airbox sit, but they are in the way.
Well yes, that is the problem. the more you add the more you chase the stresses around and the more weight you add. At some point you have to know when to stop, tho spotting and improving has become a bit of an addiction.
Anyway, its almost done and its stronger than it was in my view, and not a lot of weight has been added. Ive had a few emails with people giving me advice and guidance, and I appreciate those that did that. Its great that people are interested. Im not suggesting what ive done is gospel the best for anyone else's frame, but for what i want this is what I felt I needed. It wasnt done by an expert but I did spend a lot of time looking at other bikes and working out what would work. I'd also advise anyone else doing this that its not 5 mins work and that making the parts fit right first is the key to easier welding and that takes a lot of time.
I will weigh this frame when its done and also my standard one when its out of the bike, it will be interesting to see what extra weight has been added.
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Post by jon on Feb 15, 2017 9:50:49 GMT 1
I second 'it's not 5 mins work'.
I've spent the last two weekend afternoons just cutting the extra swingarm gussets and welding them in.
I'll post pictures when I find my camera battery charger!
Jon
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Post by JonW on Feb 15, 2017 12:17:12 GMT 1
Aint that the truth Jon! Worth it tho I reckon.
Cool, excited to see what youve done m8!
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Post by paulincayman on Feb 15, 2017 14:48:39 GMT 1
I'm looking forward to the grand weigh in ..
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Post by 4l04ever on Feb 15, 2017 18:18:35 GMT 1
At least if it all goes wrong, the frame is worth more now....in scrap value :-) I will be adding some weight to my track bike frame soon too...
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Post by jon on Feb 15, 2017 19:56:15 GMT 1
Jonw, extra swingarm gussets welded in. Jon
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Post by JonW on Feb 15, 2017 22:01:16 GMT 1
I'm looking forward to the grand weigh in .. At least if it all goes wrong, the frame is worth more now....in scrap value :-) I will be adding some weight to my track bike frame soon too... Haha, honestly I dont think it will weigh that much more, 1.5kgs is my guess. What you going to add to the track bike frame?
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Post by JonW on Feb 15, 2017 22:03:55 GMT 1
Jonw, extra swingarm gussets welded in. Jon Wow, a Brazilian! Nice work mate, I assume they are inboard by about 7 or 8mm to get you back the length on the pivot bolt?
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Post by jon on Feb 16, 2017 9:00:26 GMT 1
Yes Jon you are correct, they are slightly inboard to match the YPVS bolt width.
The bobbins are 16mm wide, leaving the original tack welded on strengthening plate.
Jon
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Post by JonW on Feb 16, 2017 9:23:11 GMT 1
I think mine were 15 so pretty close really, depending on the thickness of the plate. anyway, looks good. I was MIging in a few more small gussets this arvo and put back in the indicator timer bracket which i removed before to fit the 'cup top' etc.
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Post by jon on Feb 16, 2017 11:33:47 GMT 1
Jon, although mine were 16mm they were chamfered and went through the 5mm plates.
I'll be doing the strengthening on the cross member near the top radiator mount next.
Toying with the idea of putting one either side of the tube?
Jon
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Post by JonW on Feb 16, 2017 13:37:17 GMT 1
Ah yes, of course. mine are circa 15mm between the plates, I didnt measure the 'sticky outy' (technical term) bits.
One either side would be good. I only didnt do it on mine as Yam didnt do it like that on the ypvs, but it would make sense to do that. I was originally going to tie that top joint to the top rails on the other side in a cross, but needed the space inside for some electrics. I'll have another look at that area tomorrow on my 421 (which is still whole) and also the bare frame in the workshop.
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