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Post by JonW on Jan 6, 2017 12:44:07 GMT 1
haha me too LOL! Ive been ok for time this week and today turned up the bobbins/spacers for the swinger pin and drilled the plates to allow them to poke through for welding all the way round, I need to clean these parts up and cut the swinger pin captive recess on the mill... and then they can be welded in. Sadly, work on this job will go much slower now tho as Im busy back at work for the next few weeks, but i'll try and get some pics next time im at the shop.
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Post by jon on Jan 8, 2017 9:33:22 GMT 1
Good to hear Jon. Sounds like our frames are going to be very similar (as well as our names ) Mines partly spread waiting for my swingarm so I can match the width exactly. Jon
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Post by JonW on Jan 8, 2017 22:21:25 GMT 1
haha well yes Here is some pics from last week of the seams fully welded up and my version of the swinger area upgrade ready for tidying and welding.
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Post by JonW on Jan 11, 2017 12:59:12 GMT 1
Spent a bit more time at the 'shop cutting down the ypvs swinger pin about 15mm and then turning it down and threading it a bit more to fit the frame. It was 50+DegC in there today, people say 'like walking into an oven' but today it really was like that. A few welded pics. Been humid here (workshop is by the Paramatta river) and you can see the effects of that on the steel from just sitting overnight on the bench! After another blast it will be fine of course, after a quick tidy up with a file here n there.... and obviously the other side is done as well of course... next job is to work out what other braces to add, probably the ypvs support tubes in where the rad goes and the ypvs braces in front of the center stand bracket.
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Post by JonW on Jan 11, 2017 23:48:09 GMT 1
People have asked a few questions....
- the welding is TIG and we planned to make it look somewhat like the OEM welds, but they are so awful in places they were redone, you can find all sorts of over runs and really hot cut ins on these frames. - the thread on the swinger bolt is M14x1.5, if you do this mod you will need to turn down and rethread the YPVS bolt as its too long so the thread wont reach the frame, then cut off some of the thread as it sticks out too much. - we also fully welded the back of the OEM swinger plates where they are not fully welded in the middle part of the join, felt we should as we were there etc. (you can see this in the bottom pics) - yes this frame will be checked and re-straightened as needed when all this work is done, welding tends to pull metal in where there are gaps in the parts welded and its expected the frame will 'move' a bit no matter how much you lock it down as we dont (who does?!) have a full LC frame jig.
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Post by JonW on Jan 12, 2017 23:00:43 GMT 1
I stole a day from a work project (shush don't tell the boss... oh yeah i work for myself don't I, doh!) and headed back to the workshop to make a couple more of the YPVS brackets fit this frame... First up was the two center stand bar strengtheners from the YPVS on front edge of the center stand bracket. The LC has one small one on the chain side, which we left in place and simply added the longer later bikes version over the top of it as the YPVS version is so much larger. The other side just got the new one. One thing you can see in these welds is that the frame seems to have soaked up a lot of oils over the years and even with a chemical strip and blasting it gets oils running out which affects the welds at times, my welder friend showed me that even my perfectly prep'd parts did it on cue with a huge running drip of oil while welding this area. Ok, It was the chain side, and under the engine, but makes you realise that almost 40 years of use has its downsides, tho it does make you wonder why these frames ever rust LOL The last of the YPVS brackets I had from the old frame were the large triangles from the tube that runs back to the frame near the headstock. On the LC Yamaha put in small triangle plates on only the inside edges, but obviously with the later bike they deemed it an area that had to be much stronger as the plate they made is a bit of a work of art with compound curves etc. To it these in the LC took a lot of fettling but they integrate nicely behind the top rad mount (a bizarre sticky out design Yamaha used there LOL) and don't interfere with anything, in fact so far I've not added anything that you couldn't do to a frame that runs normal LC parts, that may change later as I don't run an airbox etc, but for now anyone could do this stuff to even a normal LC if they wanted. These area is now all blasted up and these are tacked in as they do actually fit nice n tight, tho it doesn't show in the pics, and will be welded fully soon. as you can see I left the OEM LC triangle bracing in place and we tied into it, this should help stop the frame moving so much adding these. As an amusing aside a mate came round and we asked him to locate the new parts we had added to the frame, he didn't spot these triangles even tho they were only held in place by friction as they hadn't been prep'd for welding at the time. Talk about unobtrusive, they really do look like they belong on these frames.
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Post by JonW on Jan 14, 2017 1:01:17 GMT 1
Hmm, its a bit quiet in this thread, how you going on yours Jon? My work will grind to a halt now as I wont be back at the workshop for at least a week and when I do I have to consider what come next...
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Post by steeley on Jan 14, 2017 6:54:21 GMT 1
Hi , jonw interesting thread you have going here. some years ago I was thinking of beefing my lc frame up when I had it all stripped down for a tidy up. didn't bother in the finish . I would be interested to see if the frame has gone out after the work is finished. keep up the good work.
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Post by JonW on Jan 14, 2017 14:42:24 GMT 1
Thanks m8!
Well... I'm not sure how straight the frae was to start with to be honest, its an LC frame after all, weren't they all crashed at some point?! LOL! Joking aside, we have been careful though when doing the welding, doing tacks, then short bursts and alternating the sides and brackets, but do expect it will have moved a bit, its hard to avoid that when you weld these. I'll report back and see what the straightener says of course, but we are a bit of a ways from there yet...
One thing I was interested in was a discussion with an old biker who talked about how much heat was created during blasting who suggested that if youve straightened the frame that you should not blast and powder it after.
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Post by bare on Jan 14, 2017 19:19:30 GMT 1
Old Man's tales imo. the bit about Sand blasting heat issues. It takes a verging on incompetent blaster to do that. Or possibly one who blasts bridges (prior to paintwork) for a living ? Automobile bodies are routinely blasted. Sans Any panel damages, either from heating or over blasting. Where it would definitely 'show' if it happened. Stop worrying :-)
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Post by JonW on Jan 14, 2017 23:15:15 GMT 1
haha, cheers bare
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Post by jon on Jan 15, 2017 10:59:53 GMT 1
Jonw, mines ticking along. I've just spread it to final width, and now have to extend/replace the cross members. May get time today.
My swingarm pivot plates will be slightly narrower than yours, as I'm using the original YPVS spindle (in fact the same dimensions as the one with the swingarm).
Jon
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Post by JonW on Jan 15, 2017 12:22:11 GMT 1
Great news Jon, looking forward to the pics.
I also used the OEM ypvs spindle, but as my frame is not spread i had to trim it down 15mm
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Post by jon on Jan 15, 2017 12:26:06 GMT 1
I could post pics here Jon, but it's your thread, and I've already done so on my own rebuild thread Yamaha #4.
Jon
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Post by JonW on Jan 15, 2017 23:58:24 GMT 1
feel free to post the ones about adding strength here, add a link as well in case anyone wants to look at the widening as well perhaps? I was hoping we might end up with a 'super thread' here with all our pics of improving these frames, this would save people trying to find them in build threads. EDITED: I just had a look at your thread, Ive always loved that first pic in there with u n the frame. Your face perfectly sums up the trepidation and excitement about killing a perfectly working bike to work on its frame LINK TO JON'S THREAD FOR FRAME WIDENING: rdlccrazy.proboards.com/thread/36137/yamaha-4
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Post by jon on Jan 24, 2017 22:50:47 GMT 1
Jon, a bit of a boring pic as I mentioned, but relevant to the thread. My centre stand cross member was visably bent, it may have only been a few millimetres, but it was distorted. I expect someone was sitting on it while on the stand. Anyway I decided to replace it with thicker gauge. It's only 2.9mm instead of 2.0mm, but it is noticeably thicker. Jon
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Post by JonW on Jan 25, 2017 2:52:39 GMT 1
No Jon, I disagree... thats a very interesting pic! Ive been looking at building some cross tubing on my frame and have been looking at some high grade tube thats smaller in diameter but thicker in the wall and offers more strength than the OEM tube, so once again we are both looking at the same things, albeit in different parts of the bike and in slightly differing ways. And yes... I really wish people wouldnt sit on a bike while it on the stand, my mates and I found out quickly that wasnt a good idea when a mate trashed their sidestand, but Ive seen countless others do it back then and now... 17, outside the chippy eating yer chips while sitting side saddle on yer bike looking as cool as possible cos you wanted the giggling fillies to notice you and think you must be quite a man with that big motorbike under you... well... ROFL...! Realistically you stank of vinegar and 2 stroke (and probably old spice) and didnt have a decent back seat, so the chance of a leg over was minimal at best... at least your mates were there to egg you on and provide banter when your stand failed!
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Post by Tobyjugs on Jan 25, 2017 10:19:32 GMT 1
Plus most us us we're a little bit lighter than we are now
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Post by JonW on Jan 25, 2017 13:35:12 GMT 1
Aye tis true toby... just a bit
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Post by JonW on Feb 4, 2017 0:29:02 GMT 1
The plot thickens... Can you guess where these go?
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Post by plumma on Feb 4, 2017 8:37:18 GMT 1
Probably plenty of people like me, have a read and look at what people are doing but don't post, but still interested, and gives me motivation for my r6/rgv/rz hybrid!! (Ant's bike)
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Post by JonW on Feb 4, 2017 8:45:43 GMT 1
Thanks Rob, great to have you posting mate, means a lot.
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Post by plumma on Feb 4, 2017 11:22:15 GMT 1
Keep up the good work!
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Post by semperrd on Feb 4, 2017 18:39:15 GMT 1
I just found this very interesting thread. I'm building a classic racer based on a 250 lc, and I was thinking of strenghtening my frame as it seems to be a little week at some point. But as my frame is allready powdercoated and I have a lot of other things to fabricate, I will put the bike together and use it this summer to see how it behaves. Keep up the good work
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Post by jon on Feb 4, 2017 19:51:56 GMT 1
Well Jon, my plates are shaped for the extra swing arm spindle mounts. They are made of 5mm thick mild plate, and are not the easiest of parts to shape with grinders.
My mate Geoff is going to mill a recess in a 1" bar to form to captive spacer and swingarm spindle lock, much like a YPVS.
I also bent up some tubes into a curve on a pipe bender which I am going to use as gussets to strengthen the frame.
Jon
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Post by jon on Feb 4, 2017 19:55:07 GMT 1
In answer to your question of where do the bits go you have made, I'd hazard a guess the piece in the top photo is going to go on the top of the lower frame tubes where the headstock is.
Jon
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Post by JonW on Feb 4, 2017 22:30:19 GMT 1
semperrd - Yes use it and see what you think, but its tempting while its apart to do this of course, but the powder coat will need to come off. Well Jon, my plates are shaped for the extra swing arm spindle mounts. They are made of 5mm thick mild plate, and are not the easiest of parts to shape with grinders. My mate Geoff is going to mill a recess in a 1" bar to form to captive spacer and swingarm spindle lock, much like a YPVS. I also bent up some tubes into a curve on a pipe bender which I am going to use as gussets to strengthen the frame. Jon Yeah shaping those plates wasnt much fun I should have sent you my paper template if i can find it LOL but still was tough to do even with access to a plasma cutter as its a freehand job, but plasma is much quicker tho you still need the grinders and linishers to fully clean it up after. Sounds like yours and mine will be the same in this area for sure, and imho much much stronger than standard. Interestingly I read somewhere that the wisdom now is that gussets are less strong that whole tubes. That made sense to me, but to be honest by adding a gusset where there wasnt one, youre already making it stronger than it was of course, especially in the areas that Yamaha either fitted very small gussets or later added them on the YPVS as they obviously discovered thats where they were needed. I found comparing the frames side by side gives you a lot of that info, even if they are not exactly the same frame. In answer to your question of where do the bits go you have made, I'd hazard a guess the piece in the top photo is going to go on the top of the lower frame tubes where the headstock is. Jon Yep, youre right! you can tell the (other!) man whos spent too much time looking at an LC frame recently! haha! Ok, the curved section is actually upside down in the pic (not that it matters for the shape) and it sits under the plate. this will box in the 'cup' that yamaha welded to the underside of those tubes. The plan was to make sure those tubes were fully welded together (in their 'armpits') and then box them in as they are only held from below right now. They just need blasting to clean them up and welding in now. A mate asked me how much weight ive added to this frame with these pieces the other day. So far its mostly been welding and small gussets... and the swinger plate and 'bobbins', but Id still say 'not so much', but even with these new tubes and plates I doubt id have added a kilo even, 1.5 max when its all done - ive not finished yet of course. if anyone knows the weight of a totally bare LC frame then let me know, I'll weigh mine when its done.
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Post by JonW on Feb 4, 2017 22:49:41 GMT 1
So any idea on where the ropey looking grey bars go? Have to admit they look awfully lumpy in the not so great pic. But each bend, thin end and rough looking cut has a function to get it where it need to sit, and they look 'right' on the frame I promise!
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Post by jon on Feb 5, 2017 10:09:15 GMT 1
Yes Jon, the swingarm area (and indeed some other) will look the same. I'm going for a single raised section on my bobbins (exactly like a YPVS, towards the back). I will the weld round it from the 1 o'clock position to the 5 o'clock position, then flush the welds flat. I see you've raised yours slightly and welded all round. I am using my trusty MIG welder so my welds are a little chunkier than yours. I didn't have them raised for two reasons. Firstly because of the frame spreading in order to use the YPVS spindle the plates would have to be too inbound. Secondly when you think of the forces involved I'm sure it will be strong enough.
I think I will do some gusseting today while I wait for my bobbin to be milled.
At a guess I'd say the grey tubes are to run from the centre of the headstock (hence the flattened end) to the upper and lower frame spa cross member?
Jon
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Post by JonW on Feb 5, 2017 13:11:07 GMT 1
I like the sound of what youre doing with the swinger plates, your frame is much wider than mine as we know, so the differences do make total sense to me I poked my bobbins through for a few reasons, one that i could weld around them to the plates, and also to spread the load as wide as I could across the tubes, and also so that i might have less to cut off the ypvs swinger pin, tho i still had to cut 15mm off it of course. Good guess... Tho, actually they run the other way From the shock to the top spars, cutting across the thin part of the figure of 8 where the frame is a bit 'thin'. These will also stop twist flex and help ensure the shock top mount remains solid etc. Its a big win, but means you cant run an airbox, which i dont anyway of course.
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