Wheel Swap

[dusty350]

Ever since I bought the wire spoked wheel Pv I have harboured thoughts of swapping the wheels on it over to the Cafe Racer bike. That bike has 3 spoke Rgv wheels fitted from a Vj21, and whilst I think they look awesome in the bike, I think the wire wheels would suit it better, and the 3 spokes would look great in the Pv too. Should be fairly straight forward fitting the 3 spokes into the Pv, but will have more issues getting the wires into the Cafe bike I think. Here is the start point;

20240831_091250 by dusty miller, on Flickr

20240831_091151 by dusty miller, on Flickr

Just to recap. The black bike has 17" wire spoke wheels front and rear. The rear tyre is a 150/60/17. There is no cush drive. The sprocket is a Talon, 43 teeth, so a longer chain fitted too. The caliper carrier is bespoke and milled from ali, and locks onto the standard post on the inside of the Rgv arm. A small Brembo caliper is fitted. The swingarm is a standard Rgv250 "P" arm. 220mm across the inside at the wheel spindle.
The front end is, as far as I know, Rgv 250 SP usd forks. The wire front wheel has no speedo drive, so just ali spacers either side of the wheel centralise it, and a pick up from the digital speedo gets a signal from 5 small magnets in the disc bolts. The wavey discs are standard Rgv fitment - later model though so 300mm diameter. Calipers are an unknown but fit the caliper mounts on the forks as they should

The white Cafe bike has an Lc/Rgv Metmachex swingarm fitted. The rear wheel is Vj21, so is an 18" wheel running a 140 tyre. Standard Rgv cush drive, and a standard fitment, 39 tooth rear sprocket. The caliper and carrier is one unit, and again, a standard Vj21 part. This uses a torque arm which bolts between the carrier and a bracket welded on the underside of the Metmachex. The spindle and all the spacers are Metmachex items too and differ from standard Rgv parts. Rear disc is Vj21, and these differ from Vj22 rear discs.
The front end is Rgv Vj21 rwu forks and standard yokes. The Vj21 front wheel is 17", and exactly the same wheel as the Vj22. Wheel spindle is shorter but shares the same 17mm diameter as the 22. It runs with a standard Suzuki speedo drive and a top hat spacer on the right side. These forks are set closer together than the chunkier usd forks. A rough measurement shows the distance between centres to be 210mm on the VJ22 forks, and 190mm on the VJ21, so potential issue there.
Some pics before I start. Wire spokes;

20240831_090633 by dusty miller, on Flickr

20240831_090643 by dusty miller, on Flickr

20240831_090423 by dusty miller, on Flickr

20240831_090436 by dusty miller, on Flickr

20240831_090400 by dusty miller, on Flickr

And the Cafe bike;

20240831_090603 by dusty miller, on Flickr

20240831_090554 by dusty miller, on Flickr

20240831_090456 by dusty miller, on Flickr

20240831_090512 by dusty miller, on Flickr

20240831_091018 by dusty miller, on Flickr

[donkeychomp]

I was wondering when this would begin. Ideal weather as we can't ride really. Paddock stands are on, err, standby. Let me know when you need them mate and I'll drop them off. Plus anything I can do to help just holler. Got no work on at the mo.

Alex

[tout]

You love a challenge

[midlifecrisisrd]

I'm drunk, I'll give some input tomorrow 🤪

Steve

[JonW]

Sept 7, 2024 23:33:25 GMT 1 midlifecrisisrd said:

I'm drunk, I'll give some input tomorrow 🤪

Steve

This should be your forum sign off Steve!

Defo some challenges with this swap, but youre up to the task for sure Dusty.

Its a great idea to document this sort of job as those who havent done this sort of thing might learn how to do it as they can see that as the issues come up they need solving.

Its all in the dimensions, not the time continuum...

[mouse]

I think this will look great, the spoked wheels should really suit the 'TZ' bike and when did three spoke wheels not suit a powervalve? Though i think it may not be quite as straight forward as hoped!

Mouse

[dusty350]

Cheers Alex. I'm sorted for stands thanks. I have 2 rear paddock stands, and Mouse has very kindly lent me 2 fronts. One is a beautifully made Harris stand that is quite simply brilliant, and uses a pin to locate into the hollow steering stem of the Rgv bottom yoke in the white bike. The other is a short paddock stand that locates under the bottom of the fork legs - ideal on the black bike as that has a billet bottom yoke and a solid stem, so I cant use the Harris on that bike. In the past I have used a car jack with a platform that I made that lifts the bike so the front wheel can be removed, but it requires the pipes to be off and I dont want to disturb them on either bike, so the front stands are essential. The Harris is so easy to use, and the bike is rock solid once it's in place (you have to use the rear paddock stand with both types of course), and the other stand is a little trickier but works fine.
Cheers Tout - more of a challenge than it first appeared. You would think swapping between Rgv parts would be simple enough, but it wont be !!
Any input would be welcome Steve Hope your head isn't too sore
Absolutely right Jon. I'm documenting it so others can see what's involved. I've tried to do as many measurements as I can with the wheels in the bikes to give me a rough idea of the good and the bad, and I have an idea of where the problems lay. I've cross referenced Rgv part numbers using the Fowlers website;

www.fowlersparts.co.uk/?srsltid=AfmBOoqOkMldv-mN0bQQDhE61ny__64OiHjtLV1jX8mK9nOKxtAliot1

And I also use a website where you can search brake discs - offset, diameter, bolt hole size etc;

brooksbarn.com/en/ta/11/category/10701120000/?fbclid=IwAR0qvutAzPmnyZpYOG1wm3zEiApFABxCwxk0O8H2pmV4F1v0oPH6lN_fg-I

That site is invaluable if you are trying to source alternative discs.
For this to work, it needs to be a cheap swap. By that I mean, I dont have cash to throw at engineers to solve multiple problems, and sourcing multiple alternative parts for either bike is out too. I know that there will be some financial input needed, but it needs to be minimal. The most important thing is to get the black bike back on it's wheels and roadworthy as I'm riding it. The Cafe bike is a real long term project and as long as it can be moved around when needed, it doesn't need to be finished in the same way as the black bike does.
I do have some spere Rgv parts in the shed, so I dug them out to have on standby;

20240831_085359 by dusty miller, on Flickr

It's the spacers mainly that could be useful. The Metmachex spacers are different to allow the rear wheel to work in that swingarm.
I also have the Talon 39 tooth sprocket that was on the bike when Yogi had it;

20240831_085237 by dusty miller, on Flickr

I also have a technical conusultant who is ever present, and prevents me launching tools around the garage in a fit of frustration ! She thinks I'm mad, but she's a Spaniel, so much madder !!

20240831_090413 by dusty miller, on Flickr

First job will be pop to Mouse's to take some measurements of some loose Rgv parts.

[headcoats]

Think it would be a shame to take the spokes off the black/red bike as it makes it look great and unique.
Maybe source some more spoked wheels for the TZ bike 🤔
Sell the Rgv ones

[andy748]

Nice job Dusty, why not source a Gsxr400 rear for 17" rubber choice, or Gs500, cheap as chips and much stronger cush drives. I think spokes would suit the cafe bike better, it'll look awesome. Andy.

[midlifecrisisrd]

OK, first thoughts

The VJ21 rear wheel should go straight in the vj22 arm with the standard spacers

You then will have to either get a torque arm lug welded onto the bottom of the arm or try and see if you can make up a rose jointed rod to go between the caliper bracket and the inside of the arm where the paddock stand mount goes through

Steve

[midlifecrisisrd]

Or long term as Andy said (but goes away from the cheap swap) get a gk76 or gsf400 wheel, caliper and cush drive in there

As he says its a lot beefier, plenty of meat to machine down for offset and you can use an sv650 race 41t sprocket or a 39t gs500 (same fitment)

Steve

[midlifecrisisrd]

With both the front ends being rgv fingers crossed it's a straight swap

Steve

[midlifecrisisrd]

Spoked wheel into metmachex is another world of possible pain as it will be narrower

Disc side looks like it has a spacer under the disc so room for adjusting offset to squeeze it in the met arm

Sprocket side really depends if it has more offset than the rgv

If so you may need an offset rear sprocket made. At least you could get it made in 41t/39t or make one from a Renthal blank

Can the sprocket nuts be changed to countersunk bolts to help with arm clearance?

At least the cafe bike can be put on the back burner

Steve

[midlifecrisisrd]

Some more wheel info

Gk76 is 20mm spindle and 4.5 x 17. Same bearings/spacer as RGV

GSF 400 is 17mm spindle but RGV/GK76 bearings/spacer fit and it 4.00 x 17. Rear disc has 5mm more offset

GS500 is 17mm spindle, not tried bearings but still the same bearing OD so should be doable. 3.5 x 17mm

All 3 have the same type sprocket carrier but different offsets to correspond with the rim/tyre width

Discs on GSF/GS are larger ID but you can get the smaller RGV disc (same bolt pattern) but with the correct 84mm ID rather than the RGV 81mm

On the GSF/GS the disc bolt mounts don't have the 10mm shoulder but easy to drill out a little with a 10mm drill

Steve

[midlifecrisisrd]

Anyway, should look mega when done 👍

I've now cluttered up your thread with my ramblings 🤪

Please feel free to tidy/delete as you go to make the thread look tidier, just advice and not needed as part of your conversion thread 👍

Steve

[urbantangleweed]

My thoughts are that each style of wheel would suit the other bike better, so I reckon it's 100% the right thing to do (if it can be done at reasonable cost).

[dusty350]

I think the info you've added is pertinent to any potential wheel swap Steve, so thanks for adding that
This swap needs to be done on the (relative) cheap. If it cant be done without spending a sizeable amount of money, then I will happily keep the wheels in each bike as they are. If I had to source another Rgv rear, apart from the cost of the wheel itself (easily 150, probably more) you then add powdercoat, new bearings and a tyre, you are then into 400 quid odd My Rgv wheels have new bearings and tyres, albeit it a few years back, but zero miles on them. The tyres on the spokey wheels are actually 17 years old, and very much feel like it when you ride the bike ! They wont matter if they make it onto the Cafe bike, and the black bike will benefit from newer tyres. A pair of new tyres for the spokeys would be £220, so if I can do the swap for less than that I will be happy.
I love the Rgv 3 spoke look, and I think they will look great in the black bike, and I think the white wheels will add to the look too. And the spokeys will look awesome in the Cafe bike - very much a period look for the silhouette of the bike and probably the only time I will get to try it out.
So, first a visit to Mouse's place to take a look at some loose Rgv parts - much easier to measure a wheel when it's out of the bike. We already know a front wheel is exactly the same 17" item shared by both the Vj21 and the Vj22, so thats a "win"
I measured across the hub on my Vj21 rear wheel (which is an 18", 4" wide rim), fully expecting it to be narrower than the wider rimmed Vj22. Happy to say the width of the hub is exactly the same between rear wheels, so that bodes well for swapping across. I think the Vj21 and 22 swingarms share a width of 220mm internally at the wheel spindle, as does the Metmachex as it was made for an Rgv wheel. Only part that differs is how the caliper carrier is locked in place, and I specified an arm for a Vj21 as that's what I had, so Garry welded on an underside bracket for the torque arm set up for the Vj21 carrier.
The first potential problem presents itself now. The spoked rear wheel is running a much wider hub than the Rgv. Obvious when you think about it -the spokes start at the edge of the hub and angle inwards to the rim, and the hub has an extension plate to allow the caliper to clear the spokes;

20240831_090436 by dusty miller, on Flickr

This in turn means a standard caliper carrier wont have the room to fit, hence the bespoke ali carrier that's fitted, along with the mini Brembo, allowing it all to fit into a standard width swingarm. A bespoke spacer on the sprocket side completes the set up.
Likewise with the front. A wider hub fits ok in the usd forks as they are spaced 20mm further apart than on the rwu's of the Vj21. I measured from the outside of the left disc to the outside of the right, and there is an 8mm difference between bikes, This says the Rgv wheel will fit the Usd forks with room to spare, but the spokey will be too wide for the rwu's with the discs fitted - they will wedge against the forks
I hope this isn't too confusing. I've spent hours going through this in my mind and ended up getting confused (not hard for me to get confused !)
So, the only way to prove/disprove is to jack both the bikes up and try it. Startng with the rears first. I always think the rear end swap on any bike is hardest to do, due to chain run, caliper position etc, but in this case I think the rear will be easier;

20240905_134931 by dusty miller, on Flickr

[dusty350]

So, after overthinking this for far too long, I felt the only way to see what's what was to remove both the rear wheels and swap them across, and seeing what spacers worked to line up each wheel. I had left Mouse's place with a spare Tyga caliper carrier - thanks again mate - and thought this may be useful in the black bike as it works with the Brembo caliper, and will lock onto the post on the Vj22 swingarm;

20240905_134944 by dusty miller, on Flickr

I opted to use a standard Rgv spacer on the sprocket side, and a standard Rgv spacer against the wheel bearing on the caliper side, and then the Tyga carrier. Everything fitted as it should, and the chain run looked spot on. Chain will need a couple of links removing as the Rgv wheel is running a 39 tooth sprocket. The Tyga carrier mounts the Brembo underneath the swingarm (it was above when the wire wheel was fitted), so I need a longer braided line too, which I can pinch off the white bike for the time being;

20240909_200407 by dusty miller, on Flickr

20240909_200355 by dusty miller, on Flickr

The caliper is sat on the top of the disc in this pic, but will be underslung on the carrier once i've sorted the brake line;

20240905_152102 by dusty miller, on Flickr

I'm happy this worked as easily as it did, but also not that surprised as it an Rgv wheel into an Rgv arm, albeit different model years, and a Tyga carrier that is tried and tested on Rgv rear ends.
I was a bit more unsure when it came to the spokey wheel going into the Metmachex arm though. It should work as both swingarms are the same width but the wider spoked hub was an unknown. First job was to remove the 43 tooth sprocket and fit the 39, and I then swapped the wavey disc for a spare Vj21 disc I had as I want the spokeys to have non wave discs. I took the opportunity to polish the wheel up whilst it was loose too.
So using the original spacer for the spoked wheel on the sprocket side, and the original spacer with the ali carrier on the caliper side, the wheel slid straight in ! Chain run is spot on. I can use the carrier above the swingarm if I make a bracket that could be welded onto the carrier and sit below the arm for the torque arm to bolt to, or undersling the bracket and drill a hole in it and bolt the torque arm to it directly. This would mean reshaping the carrier as it would be upside down. Option A is my preferred choice I think. Really pleased with how it looks;

20240907_144531 by dusty miller, on Flickr

I will need to buy another Brembo caliper, and I might be able to use the shorter brake line from the black bike.
So both the rear ends are in, line up and adjusted. I cut 2 links out of the chain on the black bike for the smaller sprocket too.
Front wheels next - this is where it will get tricky

[andy748]

Hi Dusty, just a thought, could you fabricate a torque arm to bolt on the other side of the swinging arm bobbin to the hanger, no need to weld? Andy.

[midlifecrisisrd]

Good progress 👍

Steve

[sidney81]

Looking good dusty 👍

[dusty350]

Hi Andy
Ideally I will utilise the torque arm I have already. It would be simple enough to cut some ali plate that could be welded on by the fella I use. Nothing will be done until I know the front end will work though, so it can all be reversed if needs be. I prefer the caliper on top of the swingarm with this ali carrier, but swinging it underneath would make torque arm fitment easier, but would mean cutting off the fork part (you cant see it in the pics but it resembles the Tyga design), and reshaping the carrier, and just wouldn't look right, imo. Although there is some work to do, I did feel the rear end would be an easier swap. The narrower set forks of the Cafe bike are gonna cause issues with the wider hubbed spokey wheel for sure

[dusty350]

Cheers Steve and Chris

[urbantangleweed]

Both look even better than I thought they would 

[Yogi]

I have to agree they probably suit the bikes better now 👌

[oldbritguy]

The swap was meant to be Dusty
Both look superb.
John

[oldelsieboy]

Nice work dusty, now all the TZ needs is a dry clutch ☺️

OEB

[jon]

dusty350 is that RGV swingarm chrome powder coat?

Jon

[dusty350]

Cheers fellas
Not sure about a dry clutch Nigel - that would break the bank !!
With the rears virtually sorted, I jacked up the fronts. As said, Mouse's Harris stand is great, and I used that on the white bike as the Rgv bottom yoke stem is hollow and took the locating pin of the stand no problem. The black bike has what looks like a Tyga bottom yoke and that has a solid stem, so I used the other stand that Mouse leant me that goes under the bottom of the forks. With both off the floor the calipers came off both bikes, plus the carbon muddie on the black bike so I could remove the speedo pick up. The Rgv front wheel slipped into the usd forks of the black bike with no problem, and I used the Rgv speedo drive but was short of a top hat spacer for the other side (the Vj21 forks are narrower so the top hat on those forks is shorter). I then remembered I had kept a spacer from an Rgv set up a few projects ago, and dug it out. And it was the correct width ! So the wheel was central in the forks, but I did have to shim the calipers inwards a bit so they lined up with the discs. Not sure why I needed to do that - maybe because the calipers are possibly not Rgv fitment ? Anyway, although time consuming, shimming them was easy with the wheel off the floor so you could spin it to adjust out any binding. With everything tightened up, I got it outside to have a proper look;

20240907_110023 by dusty miller, on Flickr

20240907_105953 by dusty miller, on Flickr

Really happy with that. Getting the black bike right was the priority, and I'm going to keep the 3 spokes in this bike now.
The last thing to do was change the discs over, so the waveys would go onto the Rgv front wheel. I think the round discs will suit the spokeys on the Cafe bike better. I could get the right hand disc off no problem, but had the problem of the pick up magnets sitting in the socket of the disc bolts on the left. Yogi confirmed they weren't glued in, and the strong magnet that I have wouldn't budge them, so I had to resort to a pick and a hammer and destroyed them to get them out. Luckily they were quite a soft metal. Once out I could remove the bolts and swap the discs over. I thin fitted 5 new magnets that I've had and never used - they just drop into the bolt heads and their magnetism holds them firmly in place;

20240907_144950 by dusty miller, on Flickr

I've still to sort the rear caliper and refit the speedo pick up but otherwise it's done.
The front spoked wheel will be next

[dusty350]

Hi Jon, yes, I believe it's the chrome powdercoat. Yogi will know for sure