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Post by midlifecrisisrd on Nov 14, 2021 19:43:31 GMT 1
Was having a chat with someone the other day and this subject popped up.
People say that old classic cars and bikes will be obsolete as fuel and laws make them more difficult to own
Think cars will have it worse.
In a few years new petrol and diesel card will be banned so it will either be hybrid or electric only
Will that mean if you pass in one of these you will only be licensed for an auto gearbox?
So what will happen to the classic car owners of the future who don't have a license to drive one?
Steve
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Post by arrow on Nov 14, 2021 22:10:21 GMT 1
It's only new Petrol and Diesel cars that won't be made after the cut off date. Second hand cars will still be around for a long time. The big question is, will they then be worth next to nothing, or in great demand?
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Post by midlifecrisisrd on Nov 14, 2021 22:32:05 GMT 1
Yes I realise that but can you imagine a driving instructor using a 5 year old Corsa?
Will it just be a case of everybody will learn in an auto and being allowed to drive a manual will just be a given
I imagine someone jumping into a manual for the first time and trying to work out clutch and gears would be a bit problematic. Jeez, I have enough bother some days getting back in a manual
Steve
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Post by donkeychomp on Nov 14, 2021 22:35:50 GMT 1
I reckon they'll be in huge demand. Even now used car prices are getting silly. My car cost me £400 over 2 years ago and similar ones are now around the £1000 mark. And electric cars just aren't going to work en masse. My next door neighbours have 4 cars. If they were all electric they'd need 4 expensive charging points. Now imagine that, but for every household. We can barely make enough electricity to run our country as it is. How do we power millions of leccy vehicles? Coal? Kinda pointless really.
Alex
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Post by veg on Nov 14, 2021 22:41:18 GMT 1
In the states I believe that the vast majority of cars are autos so quite a ltd appeal for manuals. I guess it’s going that way over over here, lots of semi autos and most higher end cars are now only auto. My lad 17 has just been bought his first car, a 5 yr old polo but actually requested a manual, I was quite chuffed tbh. On electric cars was in a new ish electric taxi in London last week, the driver was saying he’s been told in 4 years there’s a new more efficient electric taxi coming out and you won’t be able to upgrade the batteries on his taxi, hence he reckons his £50k plus taxi will be worthless, I should imagine normal road cars will be similar.
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Post by arrow on Nov 14, 2021 22:42:19 GMT 1
Ah right Steve, I see what you mean.
My wife has the reverse problem, she's totally uncomfortable with the Auto (mine). I keep trying to tell her, its just stop and go.
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Post by midlifecrisisrd on Nov 14, 2021 22:57:28 GMT 1
Ah right Steve, I see what you mean. My wife has the reverse problem, she's totally uncomfortable with the Auto (mine). I keep trying to tell her, its just stop and go. Lol, mine is the same. Likes the idea of my auto but terrified she does the old codger parking error 🤣 Strangely I took my wife's manual out to pick up a Chinese as it was blocking mine in and for the first time never had to think about it Steve
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Post by midlifecrisisrd on Nov 14, 2021 23:07:51 GMT 1
I don't think petrol and diesels will last till 2030
Certainly not diesels
Think I'm going to get one of Ford's last oil burners. Ordered in July, just been told it's delayed till February
A colleague ordered the same in October
Ford have just cancelled his order as they are not making any more diesels
Steve
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Post by arrow on Nov 14, 2021 23:15:55 GMT 1
Mines only 999cc, petrol, turbo, three cylinder. It's the best car for the motorway I've ever had. Used the speed limiter a lot today. Just come back from Scotland this morning. Very close to you in fact.
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Post by veg on Nov 14, 2021 23:18:02 GMT 1
Really bloody hell. I wanted to get a used new model of the wife’s car in diesel but they don’t do them, and the petrol is thirsty as feck, can’t afford the hybrid one so might get a low mileage old model diesel. So it appears diesel is on the way out.
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Post by arrow on Nov 14, 2021 23:20:47 GMT 1
Really bloody hell. I wanted to get a used new model of the wife’s car in diesel but they don’t do them, and the petrol is thirsty as feck, can’t afford the hybrid one so might get a low mileage old model diesel. So it appears diesel is on the way out. Only a few months ago we were also in Scotland. One one journey from Callander to Oban I got 64.3 mpg average. And I don't hang about. I'm still amazed with it. The low down torque is quite unbelievable.
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Post by veg on Nov 14, 2021 23:24:50 GMT 1
When the fuel panic happened few weeks back I took my lads 1.0 Lt polo to Essex and got similar mpg unlike wife’s motor mid 30’s or my toy 20 if I’m lucky 😁
On the way back from her cousins today I got only 35mpg on the motorway. These new motors are amazing.
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Post by arrow on Nov 14, 2021 23:30:26 GMT 1
I've had small petrol engines before that would have to go 65mph in third to climb up to Shap summit (M6). Its not like that anymore!
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Post by donkeychomp on Nov 15, 2021 0:06:08 GMT 1
Did some checking. Diesel HGV's will still be for sale until 2040. Surely the most polluting vehicles on the road. But we all need them. Can you imagine an electric one? The batteries would weigh more than the cargo and what kind of range would they have?
I will never own an electric car. Petrol please, and lots of it. (or Hydrogen)
Alex
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Post by arrow on Nov 15, 2021 0:24:42 GMT 1
I'm all for (predominantly) electric to be honest. What would make me feel comfortable though is a small stand by engine also under the bonnet. Say 500cc that would alow you to go a couple of hundred miles at 50mph or something like that, when you're in the shit with charging points!
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Post by veg on Nov 15, 2021 0:35:49 GMT 1
I reckon hydrogen will probably usurp electric, when you think of the electric you need cobalt a finite resource, charging points points and the infrastructure then the generation of the electric. I’d happily have a flux capacitor powered car but I’d be weary of hitting 88mph
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Post by arrow on Nov 15, 2021 0:39:54 GMT 1
Hydrogen frightens me. Its explosive limits are 4~75%. A large window for careless errors!
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Post by JonW on Nov 15, 2021 3:03:00 GMT 1
I cant see that electric is sustainable for the reasons mentioned above. I think this is like the 'clutching at straws' panacea that we all seemed to embrace in the mid to late 90s with diesel. 15-20 years later when there were lots of them about suddenly people realised it wasnt the promised land and now they are persona (fuela?) non grata. I believe electric may well go the same way. The cost to environment of making the electricity to charge them will be very costly. As usual we dont resource for things first, just make them and let the support systems catch up.
In Aus we have no real widespread excitement about this current trend for electric cars, sure they have traction in cities but the land is vast and running out of juice in the middle of nowhere means youre stuffed. We now dont get the new leccy cars either as we as a country are seen as not committed to net zero, so the likes of VW (emissions liars! lol) wont send us any ID3 or 4 and other manufacturers have followed suit and just ignored our market. To be honest you rarely see a charging point for one anyway, so... who cares?! lol.
My view is that old cars are better for the environment really. sure it might use a bit of oil and not get 50+ mpg, but the cost of building a whole new car is much higher; from mining the minerals to make the parts to the electricity to run the machinery to do the work in the factories. Let alone the scrapping of the old car and the bits that wont break down etc. Surely the best thing for the environment is to not throw things away when they are broken.... (you all know im no activist, im a restorer)
Its a good point tho that most new drivers will not bother with manual as almost all modern cars are better with an auto, its what they are designed for. Tho, ive just bought a new car that only comes in manual, but thats a very rare thing in the 2020s. I bought it for many reasons but not least cos autos never do what i want them to as the experience is lacking for me. Anyway, as said it will either be a great thing to have a manual ICE car or it will be worthless in 20 years. But, i dont care really. Its my choice... but how much longer will i be able to make it?
What i will say is that all these new cars are fast off the line. Having an auto box means even dumb drivers can press the 'go' pedal and so they are faster than manual to get going as well as all that torque they have. The biggest issue i see going forwards is avoiding getting punted by the 2 seconds to 60mph accelerating electric cars driven by people who dont care about driving while you 'struggle' to keep up with the manual box and clutch in your 'slow 5 secs to 60' version lol
Of course there is the elephant in the room as well... when will people no longer be allowed to drive themselves and when will kids not bother to learn, or insurance be so exy to do this yourself? Eventually cars that drive themselves will be the norm and we will wistfully wonder how we were ever let loose in a tonne plus of machine only feet from pedestrians loping along the footpath...
Enjoy it while you can!
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Post by chrisg on Nov 15, 2021 9:38:57 GMT 1
It's only new Petrol and Diesel cars that won't be made after the cut off date. Second hand cars will still be around for a long time. The big question is, will they then be worth next to nothing, or in great demand? I've wondered about that and think it all depends on what the government do with regard to road tax. If they decide to make every petrol and diesel car tax a minimum of £500 its going to have a big effect. Car prices are rising due to a shortage of Chinese semi conductors, unbelievable.
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Post by midlifecrisisrd on Nov 15, 2021 9:59:53 GMT 1
It's funny what you say about autos being faster jon
Yes they get off the line quick with very little wheelspin (mine even holds the revs if you have the left foot on the brake and right foot on the floor ready to launch)
The bit I find strange is that considering it has 6 gears like the manual and computer controlled then why the feck does it do less mpg and have higher emissions than a manual 🙄
Hopefully the new 8 speed on order will be better 🤞
Could have been worse, I nearly ended up with a Toyota Camry by default
Steve
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Post by chrisg on Nov 15, 2021 10:40:40 GMT 1
It's funny what you say about autos being faster jon Yes they get off the line quick with very little wheelspin (mine even holds the revs if you have the left foot on the brake and right foot on the floor ready to launch) The bit I find strange is that considering it has 6 gears like the manual and computer controlled then why the feck does it do less mpg and have higher emissions than a manual 🙄 Hopefully the new 8 speed on order will be better 🤞 Could have been worse, I nearly ended up with a Toyota Camry by default Steve I think the problem with autos and I'm a big fan, is that it's not a direct drive. For example when your at 30pmh and put your foot down the engine revs rise along with fuel consumption but the road speed lags behind. Definitely a nicer way to drive ,especially in traffic jams.
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Post by arrow on Nov 15, 2021 11:17:56 GMT 1
Mine is direct drive. Its the twin clutch dsg gearbox 7 speed, with no torque converter.
Think of it as a manual gearbox but with auto change.
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Post by midlifecrisisrd on Nov 15, 2021 11:49:30 GMT 1
Mine is direct drive. Its the twin clutch dsg gearbox 7 speed, with no torque converter. Think of it as a manual gearbox but with auto change. Think my new one will be better as will be the same as yours I was told the old one I have is actually a manual box and a normal clutch but controlled by solenoids It's fine for city and motorway but I don't like it on back roads It either drops gears as soon as you touch the throttle or changes up every time you lift off for a bend or a crest then has to drop back down when you go back on the power Better sticking it in manual and using the steering wheel paddles but still a delay between asking and getting a gear Even in manual if you floor it it will change into the lowest possible gear. No good when you just want a bit of grunt It makes 400nm between 2 and 3.5k revs. It doesn't need to drop a bloody gear 🙄 Steve
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Post by arrow on Nov 15, 2021 12:09:50 GMT 1
I'll admit, it's taken me a long while to get used to it, it's my first auto too. Have come to realise that the gearbox is far more logistically correct at it's inputs than I am/was. It will easily pull top gear at 1500rpm and I'm still thinking, how does it do that.
It uses fuzzy logic as well, so you can train it to a degree to your driving style.
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Post by veg on Nov 15, 2021 12:41:03 GMT 1
Only driven autos for the past 10 plus years, however my toy was chosen because it was a manual. Most autos today are pretty good the days of the E36 smg box is well over. Most boxes are either auto or semi autos today. I prefer them for work as nowt worse than being in traffic with a manual and obviously electric aren’t manual as far as I know without exception.
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Post by Shytalk on Nov 15, 2021 17:04:24 GMT 1
Mine is direct drive. Its the twin clutch dsg gearbox 7 speed, with no torque converter. Think of it as a manual gearbox but with auto change. Think my new one will be better as will be the same as yours I was told the old one I have is actually a manual box and a normal clutch but controlled by solenoids It's fine for city and motorway but I don't like it on back roads It either drops gears as soon as you touch the throttle or changes up every time you lift off for a bend or a crest then has to drop back down when you go back on the power Better sticking it in manual and using the steering wheel paddles but still a delay between asking and getting a gear Even in manual if you floor it it will change into the lowest possible gear. No good when you just want a bit of grunt It makes 400nm between 2 and 3.5k revs. It doesn't need to drop a bloody gear 🙄 Steve The other thing Steve is there'll be a few different selectable driving modes to choose from as well, you'll find one that suits.
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Post by copper99 on Nov 15, 2021 20:42:29 GMT 1
I think you'll find Steve Hybrids will be banned in a few years as well, they fit nicely into the term "greenwashing" , a Frankenstein of technology.
Our company policy is hybrids only , the battery range is pathetic (25-40 miles) , then the petrol engine has to lug 300-400kg of battery around for most of the journey so the fuel consumption suffers, servicing and parts are also more expensive.
Boris has spoken openly about them already being targeted to be included in Londons ULEZ charges , other cities will follow suit.
My next company car will be electric of that im sure.
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Post by midlifecrisisrd on Nov 15, 2021 21:06:33 GMT 1
Well im hoping this next one will be my last company car as all going well I'll semi retire before the lease is up
If it gets that far. Company is changing terms and conditions and it ain't good for the long service guys
All good will is gone now
Steve
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Post by copper99 on Nov 15, 2021 22:43:35 GMT 1
Well im hoping this next one will be my last company car as all going well I'll semi retire before the lease is up If it gets that far. Company is changing terms and conditions and it ain't good for the long service guys All good will is gone now Steve That I know mate, I still meet up with some of my old colleagues and of course we have Mr Rhodes with us now. Bloody shame but there ya go, take your car and the money and enjoy that early retirement.
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Post by donkeychomp on Nov 15, 2021 22:54:53 GMT 1
I agree with Jon. Keeping an older car or bike on the road is way more 'greener' than buying a new car every three years. But back to electric cars and the fact we can't produce enough power for us all to use them, what are the government expecting to happen? Nuclear fusion or something? It all just strikes me as rather insane, especially when you consider how the batteries for these cars are made. Not exactly environmentally friendly. Hey ho and all that.
Alex
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