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Post by tony2stroke on Apr 3, 2020 17:31:32 GMT 1
Can I throw this in www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Genuine-YAMAHA-RD250LC-RD350LC-RD350YPVS-Crank-Seals-93103-25108-93103-40077/193377252452?hash=item2d062eb464:g:fJQAAOSwj-Ba5LsuLook closely at the seal and it is slightly different to yours, yours has the writing on the inside of seal. but this genuine one in a bag had writing on outside ring of seal, you can also see marks that look like the castellated raised ridges of the other sides seal (if you follow me). There is no yellow ring round seal as with yours commented on by Stusco, something is not right there. I would say that with this seal listed above you would fit writing facing out. I wonder if your seal is upgrade for later models but same sizes, maybe the writing is the same as above if you turn it around. sorry to go on about which way around, but I can't see it working either way round, maybe send Norbo a message to ask him if its the right way round, once you know that's right you can simply change it anyway as it is most likely not going to seal itself I fear. They are easily damaged when fitting. Also I don't see ARS written on the seal listed above either, but comes in genuine bag. Just looked up part number and this came up, have a look, interesting. www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Genuine-YAMAHA-RD250-RD400-Crank-Seals-93103-25108-93103-20076/193377269837?hash=item2d062ef84d:g:4W0AAOSwHt9eZ8rTListed as same part number, but has different part number on bag, has yellow ring, but not listed as for LC. Go to Fowlers for essential stuff is my advice I am sorry to say, I know its a couple of quid more, but its worth the extra.
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Post by oldelsieboy on Apr 3, 2020 17:51:42 GMT 1
OEM seals just removed from bags. Drive side seal Stator side seal Either side of seal OEB
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Post by tony2stroke on Apr 3, 2020 18:16:44 GMT 1
Those pics from OEB say to me say its the wrong way round mate.
You want the side with ars on it facing out, the flatter side if you get my drift.
The yellow ring facing in I would say.
Fitted the way you see it in the last pic.
But Genuine seal.
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Post by scooter on Apr 3, 2020 18:42:16 GMT 1
so tony the correct way is with the writing on the outer ring facing out and the slight castilation marks and the writing on the inner area facing in
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Post by tony2stroke on Apr 3, 2020 19:34:16 GMT 1
Look at the last pic by OEB, fit it like that, the face you see facing you should be facing you when fitted.
the side with yellow ring that you have fitted showing, should be other way round, the yellow ring should be inside engine.
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Post by tony2stroke on Apr 3, 2020 19:44:08 GMT 1
I don't know how to make it any more clear, if you look at both pics of the seal from OEB, you can see one side has a groove on the outer ring with yellow (and writing in inner ring) I can see this on your first post and better on your other post, this is incorrect, that side should be facing inward not outward.
the side with the flatter outer ring has the writing on that outer ring, that is how it should be fitted, facing you as in last pic from OEB.
Please trust me, you have it the wrong way round, but it may be goosed now anyway.
Take it out turn it round and it may be OK, but that is how it should be fitted (turned round) from how it is fitted now.
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Post by scooter on Apr 3, 2020 20:09:29 GMT 1
cheers well i know what im doing tomorrow will keep you all posted
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Post by tony2stroke on Apr 3, 2020 20:11:26 GMT 1
Take the keyway key out and put some tape over the keyway itself, you can damage the seal on that easily.
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Post by 4l04ever on Apr 3, 2020 20:34:56 GMT 1
Hold fire with stripping, as got a seal out to look at now...
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Post by 4l04ever on Apr 3, 2020 20:37:14 GMT 1
...also, can you confirm you have matching case halves (i.e. the hand engraved numbers behind the stator are the same) ??
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Post by midlifecrisisrd on Apr 3, 2020 20:51:55 GMT 1
Just to mess it all up I've always fitted the lh seal with the metal bit showing to the outside
It's the same both ways but my thinking was why would you fit a seal with a join in materials into the engine where it is exposed to fuel and pressure
No strain on the outside
Never had a problem
Steve
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Post by tony2stroke on Apr 3, 2020 21:11:41 GMT 1
The manuals aren't clear on this (genuine or Haynes) as they says to always fit bearings and seals with manufacturer numbers & writing facing outwards, but there is writing on both sides of this seal.
This was one of the first things I remember getting told by my mate that worked for local Yamaha dealer as mechanic, back in the eighties I was told that, as I fitted a seal the wrong way round.
I am positive this seal is in the wrong way round, I don't think it will work correctly as is, it needs to be turned around, I will say no more on the matter, I only hope he listens to me.
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Post by midlifecrisisrd on Apr 3, 2020 21:16:04 GMT 1
The manuals aren't clear on this (genuine or Haynes) as they says to always fit bearings and seals with manufacturer numbers & writing facing outwards, but there is writing on both sides of this seal. This was one of the first things I remember getting told by my mate that worked for local Yamaha dealer as mechanic, back in the eighties I was told that, as I fitted a seal the wrong way round. I am positive this seal is in the wrong way round, I don't think it will work correctly as is, it needs to be turned around, I will say no more on the matter, I only hope he listens to me. I wasn't saying I'm right lol Wouldn't be the first time I've been doing something wrong for years Ask my wife 🤣 Steve
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Post by tony2stroke on Apr 3, 2020 21:39:47 GMT 1
The manuals aren't clear on this (genuine or Haynes) as they says to always fit bearings and seals with manufacturer numbers & writing facing outwards, but there is writing on both sides of this seal. This was one of the first things I remember getting told by my mate that worked for local Yamaha dealer as mechanic, back in the eighties I was told that, as I fitted a seal the wrong way round. I am positive this seal is in the wrong way round, I don't think it will work correctly as is, it needs to be turned around, I will say no more on the matter, I only hope he listens to me. I wasn't saying I'm right lol Wouldn't be the first time I've been doing something wrong for years Ask my wife 🤣 Steve No offence meant or taken, trying to help as everyone is, don't mean to seam like I am shouting, it comes out different when you write something sometimes I am not even sure which way round you are saying you fit yours, is it different to the way I am saying then. Sorry I know I said I wasn't going to say anymore, But!!
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Post by oldelsieboy on Apr 3, 2020 21:46:14 GMT 1
I always buy genuine crank seals from Fowlers & always fit the generator side seal the same way as the OP, never had any issues.
OEB
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Post by midlifecrisisrd on Apr 3, 2020 21:47:12 GMT 1
In the last of oeb's pics I fit that face inward
Who knows 🤣
Steve
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Post by oldelsieboy on Apr 3, 2020 21:48:15 GMT 1
In the last of oeb's pics I fit that face inward Who knows 🤣 Steve Ditto OEB
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Post by 4l04ever on Apr 3, 2020 22:09:17 GMT 1
How is the left seal handed? There is a spring on both sides of the seal, and the sealing lips look symmetrical, so what is the difference? Lettering would not affect the sealing ability???
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Post by midlifecrisisrd on Apr 3, 2020 22:19:10 GMT 1
I've always thought it wasn't handed, just the way I've chose to fit them
Different with a seal that has a closed side but this one is open both sides
Steve
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Post by donkeychomp on Apr 3, 2020 22:25:49 GMT 1
Ask Dusty. He's done a load of engine rebuilds.
Alex
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Post by tony2stroke on Apr 3, 2020 22:55:26 GMT 1
With everyone saying it doesn't matter then don't bother turning it round, they have all built RDLC engines, I have not as yet, but my instinct would be to fit the other way round.
I have built many engines but not yet a 250 or 350 lc.
We all have different ways of getting the same job done.
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Post by 4l04ever on Apr 4, 2020 1:43:45 GMT 1
This is a close up of my seal not got ars on it got fwj If you follow the groove around counter-clockwise from the FWJ, there is some very small writing near the bottom...looks like the Ars logo to me...
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Post by JonW on Apr 4, 2020 4:54:43 GMT 1
me too. At circa 7 oclock.
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Post by tony2stroke on Apr 4, 2020 11:04:32 GMT 1
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Post by dusty350 on Apr 4, 2020 11:24:00 GMT 1
I've fitted seals both ways around to be honest. I have always been led to believe that the left side seal isn't "sided" like the primary side seal. I've never had a problem fitting the left side seal either way around, and never had a leak like Scooter has. I don't think that leak is linked to which way around the seal has been installed. Maybe an imperfection/wear on the taper surface of the crank, a damaged lip on the seal, or maybe a seal that isn't genuine, although if Norbo supplied it as a genuine seal then that last possibility seems unlikely. I always coat the seal lips with either 2 stroke oil or red rubber grease now - usually grease as I feel it stays in place for longer as it may be some time before my engine is fired up. I buy all my seals from Fowlers, and they always come in individual bags - never had any delivered loose ? And I would add that I'm no expert on this - I just try and be methodical, use genuine parts wherever possible, and take my time building them up as best as I can. I've asked the question regards "sided" fitment before, and concluded it didn't matter. I would be looking at the crank surface where the seal sits, and the seal itself - any damage to the lips will cause a leak. Dusty
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Post by tony2stroke on Apr 4, 2020 11:43:08 GMT 1
I've fitted seals both ways around to be honest. I have always been led to believe that the left side seal isn't "sided" like the primary side seal. I've never had a problem fitting the left side seal either way around, and never had a leak like Scooter has. I don't think that leak is linked to which way around the seal has been installed. Maybe an imperfection/wear on the taper surface of the crank, a damaged lip on the seal, or maybe a seal that isn't genuine, although if Norbo supplied it as a genuine seal then that last possibility seems unlikely. I always coat the seal lips with either 2 stroke oil or red rubber grease now - usually grease as I feel it stays in place for longer as it may be some time before my engine is fired up. I buy all my seals from Fowlers, and they always come in individual bags - never had any delivered loose ? And I would add that I'm no expert on this - I just try and be methodical, use genuine parts wherever possible, and take my time building them up as best as I can. I've asked the question regards "sided" fitment before, and concluded it didn't matter. I would be looking at the crank surface where the seal sits, and the seal itself - any damage to the lips will cause a leak. Dusty Your fitting of it both ways round confirms it can be fitted either way round, you have built many I know, I agree with your philosophy and do the same, never force anything, make sure everything clean, plenty of lube, use genuine items for seals and bearings at least, sound advice.
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Post by muttsnuts on Apr 4, 2020 12:28:49 GMT 1
The stator side seal can go either way, both lips of the seal have Teflon coatings (red colouring on the lip of the seal), so it doesn't matter, unlike the clutch side, which is handed.
Now back to the point about a leak down test, lets think about this logically, so it had 6psi in and lost 3psi over 6 mins, so if the engine is running at say 5000rpm, then that means the actual losses are miniscual, now ok we need to factor in the cccr (crank case compression ratio), but all said and done, if the seal was fitted with no rubber grease, then its highly likely it will leak a little until its run, these seals are designed to run with a little bit of lubricant on them to help seal, in fact all oil seals are designed to seal better with a little bit of lubricant as it helps seal the small imperfections both in the rubber and the base material it seals against.
Personally I'd run the engine and get some heat and oil into it, then redo the test, but I've had engines that don't hold 6psi over 5 mins, but so long as you can get pressure in there and its not p*ssing past the crank seals then its likely to be ok, yes on the odd occassion a leak can be a problem, but then you have running issues alongside it.
As regards the seals, so long as ARS is on the seal then that is what Yamaha use, it maybe possible to buy them in bulk from the manufacturer, but I've no knowledge of this as I only buy from Yamaha direct as I don't need that large a quantity as rubber does deteriate over time, especially if not stored correctly
HTH
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Post by scooter on Apr 4, 2020 12:39:38 GMT 1
Hi all ive turned the seal around just out of curiosity and now waiting for 3 bond to set so will test tomorrow and update then thanks all for the input definitely see ars on this side
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Post by muttsnuts on Apr 4, 2020 12:49:22 GMT 1
Hi all ive turned the seal around just out of curiosity and now waiting for 3 bond to set so will test tomorrow and update then thanks all for the input definitely see ars on this side did you fit them with some rubber grease or the likes, or dry ? its always advisable to use rubber grease or some form of decent lubricant on the seals when fitting, it saves them getting damaged by either "dragging" or tearing if the seals sticks to the shaft while stood
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Post by tony2stroke on Apr 4, 2020 14:02:56 GMT 1
Hi all ive turned the seal around just out of curiosity and now waiting for 3 bond to set so will test tomorrow and update then thanks all for the input definitely see ars on this side did you fit them with some rubber grease or the likes, or dry ? its always advisable to use rubber grease or some form of decent lubricant on the seals when fitting, it saves them getting damaged by either "dragging" or tearing if the seals sticks to the shaft while stood Can I ask whether or not you have a preference as to which way round you fit the said seal, or do you just put it in whichever way, just curious to know, as my gut feeling would be to fit the way showing in pic above, ie facing you as pictured. I know we have established the fact it can be fitted both ways, but I am a curious gezzer. I ask you as you have most likely built more of these than anyone, TIA.
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