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Post by jon on Dec 27, 2017 12:49:03 GMT 1
Hi all,
I’m getting a bit ahead of myself as it will be a while until I need to do this, but does anyone know the sort of temperatures a YPVS engine runs at?
I’d like to know the temperatures expected both going into and out of the radiator, ie how much does it cool it?
I want to fit a variable temperature inline switch into the hoses to switch a fan.
Ideally it would go between the thermostat housing and radiator to test the temperature of the barrels, but there’s very little space. It might fit if the thermostat housing outlet tube was shortened? However I might have to fit on the inlet to the pump and lower the temperature acccordingly.
Jon
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Post by Tobyjugs on Dec 27, 2017 13:47:38 GMT 1
I'm about to fit two sensor's before/after on a 4LO engine to see whats going on. I have got two koso adapters if the top one does not fit i will adapt the sensor housing so that it does fit. My 400 cc power valve engine is running 65/70 degrees but this is measured in the original place on the cylinder head so i would imagine you could add a couple of degrees due to where the sensor is.
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Post by jon on Dec 27, 2017 13:58:47 GMT 1
Tobyjugs, I’d be interested to see th cooling effect of the radiator.
A standard YPVS one would not cool as much as the 40mm core one that I’ll be using, but it’s probably comparable to an LC one.
I can’t remember what rating the standard YPVS thermostat is either?
Jon
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Post by jessy03 on Dec 27, 2017 14:14:49 GMT 1
From memory the thermostat opens around 72 degrees, normal running temps 75/80 Jess
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Post by jon on Dec 27, 2017 14:17:58 GMT 1
The more I think about this perhaps the adjustable inline fan switch is actually better on the inlet?
That way it takes into account the effectiveness of the radiator. If it’s set to turn on the fan when the coolant is still too hot then that’s what is trying to be achieved?
Jon
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Post by jessy03 on Dec 27, 2017 14:35:50 GMT 1
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Post by jon on Dec 27, 2017 16:42:37 GMT 1
Thanks Jessy03,
I think the inlet side is possibly better as it takes into account how well the fan and radiator are working together.
You can always set the temperature to turn the fan on at a lower temperature to the actual coolant in the cylinders.
Jon
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Post by Tobyjugs on Dec 27, 2017 21:14:18 GMT 1
If your cooling water system is operating well and you understand it, i don't think it matters where you put your sensor. Personally i would put it after the cylinder head because if something go's wrong this is the first place you can detect it. For example low flow.
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Post by Tobyjugs on Dec 27, 2017 21:20:01 GMT 1
I want to use the two sensors to see how different cylinder heads perform in the cooling department.
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Post by bare on Dec 28, 2017 4:47:04 GMT 1
Tobyjugs, I’d be interested to see th cooling effect of the radiator. A standard YPVS one would not cool as much as the 40mm core one that I’ll be using, but it’s probably comparable to an LC one. I can’t remember what rating the standard YPVS thermostat is either? Jon Erm.. LC rad is a 2 row design whereas the Valvie one is a single row unit. The Lc one is the Far superior rad and it holds 3/4 litre more coolant. Standard Thermostat is 80 C Some prefer to fun a 55 C stat. Regardless 85 C was officially considered as Engine Overheat by Yamaha... as a temp to religiously avoid.
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Post by jon on Dec 28, 2017 6:57:04 GMT 1
Tobyjugs, I’d be interested to see th cooling effect of the radiator. A standard YPVS one would not cool as much as the 40mm core one that I’ll be using, but it’s probably comparable to an LC one. I can’t remember what rating the standard YPVS thermostat is either? Jon Erm.. LC rad is a 2 row design whereas the Valvie one is a single row unit. The Lc one is the Far superior rad and it holds 3/4 litre more coolant. Standard Thermostat is 80 C Some prefer to fun a 55 C stat. Regardless 85 C was officially considered as Engine Overheat by Yamaha... as a temp to religiously avoid. Bare I am aware that the standard YPVS radiator is smaller than the LC. However as I mentioned in using one of these: www.legendmotorcycles.com/index.php?route=product/product&manufacturer_id=13&product_id=312&limit=100Looks comparable to a standard LCone to me. Jon
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Post by jon on Dec 30, 2017 11:04:47 GMT 1
If your cooling water system is operating well and you understand it, i don't think it matters where you put your sensor. Personally i would put it after the cylinder head because if something go's wrong this is the first place you can detect it. For example low flow. Hi Tobyjugs, I’m not fitting an extra sensor above the original one to feed the gauge. I’m fitting an adjustable fan switch. You can adjust the thing to switch a fan on at various temperatures. This is why I don’t think it really matters if I fit it to the inlet side just before the pump, I’ll just adjust it accordingly to come on when a certain temperature is reached on the gauge. I’m not sure there is enough room for it to go inline between the thermostat cover and the rad? www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/motorsport/fan-controllers-thermostats/revotec-electronic-fan-controllerJon
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Post by Tobyjugs on Dec 30, 2017 12:25:40 GMT 1
Hi jon i just read the description and it says controlable from 70 to 120 degrees. I am not familiar with the cooling temperatures of these engines but i have a feeling that 70 degrees will be too high a temperature to activate the fan on the input side of the engine ( i would like 65 degrees coming out). I think you need to find one with a better set point. It also looks a bit baulky but pictures can be deceiving. If it is possible to strip the sensor from the body i would suggest you cut one side of the pipe away and weld it direct to the exit of your thermostat housing.
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Post by jon on Dec 31, 2017 7:04:55 GMT 1
Hi jon i just read the description and it says controlable from 70 to 120 degrees. I am not familiar with the cooling temperatures of these engines but i have a feeling that 70 degrees will be too high a temperature to activate the fan on the input side of the engine ( i would like 65 degrees coming out). I think you need to find one with a better set point. It also looks a bit baulky but pictures can be deceiving. If it is possible to strip the sensor from the body i would suggest you cut one side of the pipe away and weld it direct to the exit of your thermostat housing. Hi Tobyjugs, that’s exactly my reason for asking. I don’t really know with any degree of accuracy what normal in and out temperatures are? Obviously the inlet is cooler, but by how much to keep it at a stable temperature? Your possible right about the lower setting being too high, but I figure that this is a last resort for the fan to come on. I’ve been stuck in traffic twice where I needed a fan. Once was a motorway closure where I was able to switch off, but once was a bike rally where a huge traffic jam of bikes was making their way to the seafront. I had to keep the motor running as there was no alternative as the jam would not of let off for hours if I’d have stopped to cool down. I seem to remember the temperature gauge being about half way during normal running so that would suggest around 80c? I’ve no idea of the temperature on the inlet side to sustain this? Jon
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Post by Tobyjugs on Dec 31, 2017 14:43:56 GMT 1
Hopefully in the next couple of weeks i might be able to give you some info as a rough guide. Try sending a pm to mutts as he always has bikes on the dyno bank at operating temperature maybe he could measure the temperature with his raytec.
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Post by jon on Feb 18, 2018 18:34:11 GMT 1
OK I’m after the optimum running temperature for an RD, anyone know?
I’m tempted to add sensors both on the inlet and outlet side of the radiator. Then try various modifications to keep an optimum temperature at all speeds.
It maybe a while till I can do this, but want to be prepared, with at least an idea of what I’m going to do.
Jon
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Post by midlifecrisisrd on Feb 18, 2018 19:39:44 GMT 1
I have a strange feeling it is 55-65 degrees which sounds low
Steve
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Post by stusco on Feb 18, 2018 19:48:57 GMT 1
Bare will chip in with 80
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Post by Tobyjugs on Feb 18, 2018 19:53:44 GMT 1
The engine i have just built is running 35 in and 50 out but it is very cold at the moment. This is with 30% radiator covered as well. I will update this later as i have only started running the engine in.
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tezrhc
Drag-strip hero
Posts: 293
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Post by tezrhc on Feb 19, 2018 0:06:27 GMT 1
I've got YPVS engine with Chinese rad and last year it was running at 60 most of the time,if this helps.
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Post by jon on Feb 19, 2018 19:49:00 GMT 1
Thanks for the replies people.
Trouble is tezrhc and Tobyjugs, I’m not after a temperature yours are running at as such, although if enough people contribute we can get an idea.
I really after an optimum temperature.
Steve comes close to this with 55 to 65, but there must be an optimum to aim for?
The way I see it there are three basic conditions. Pottering along with traffic, stuck in slow moving/stopped traffic, and giving it the beans.
RD’s are not good with the second as they have no fan, hence why I’m fitting one. I could just have a simple manually operated switch, and am not ruling that out completely, but would prefer a sensor set to just below danger temperature to kick in automagically (sic) and cool the engine.
What I don’t want is to bolt every uprated cooling device on and find I’m running too cold for optimum performanvce.
It’s a tuned YPVS with expansions and maybe bigger carbs. Possibly programmable ignition and PV control at a later date.
It will start off with a Legend radiator (similar capacity to an LC) and a cool head. It also has an R6 fan behind the radiator.
Unless I can get some definitive answers I might leave it at that, run it and see. Later options are 50 degree or possibly TZR thermostat and/or billet or billet widened impeller. I’ve heard the widened ones don’t make that much difference, but don’t know if that’s compared to a standard width billet on or OEM?
Jon
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Post by cb250g5 on Feb 19, 2018 19:59:30 GMT 1
Thanks for the replies people. What I don’t want is to bolt every uprated cooling device on and find I’m running too cold for optimum performanvce. You can't do that if you have a thermostat fitted, it will just open & close a lot if the incoming water is much colder than required.
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Post by jon on Feb 19, 2018 20:41:37 GMT 1
Thanks for the replies people. What I don’t want is to bolt every uprated cooling device on and find I’m running too cold for optimum performanvce. You can't do that if you have a thermostat fitted, it will just open & close a lot if the incoming water is much colder than required. This is precisely my point. First you need to know the optimum temperature, then have a thermostat to open just below that. Going on what Yamaha have fitted to the YPVS that’s just under 70 degrees? The radiator on a standard YPVS is rather weedy and so when 70 is reached the radiator has to supply enough relatively colder water to lower the temperature. Now seeing the temperature of the coolant in the radiator is relatively cooler it should lower the temperature enough to allow the thermostat to close. Now I figure a bigger radiator will not cool the coolant any more before the thermostat opens, more have a larger volume of relatively cooler coolant at disposal. After all the surface area of the radiator may be a bit larger, but the same volume of cooling air is going through it. Also I see a cool head having more surface area being able to cool quicker rather than more. After all if the coolant temperature entering the system is constant it not going to be able to lower the cylinder temperature lower than it is in the radiator, just quicker. On a tuned engine which is going to run hotter when giving it the beans I worry the standard radiator and head cannot react fast enough to cool. I agree if the optimum temperature is say 65 degree then the 70 degreee thermostat makes sense, and a 50 degree thermostat a poor choice so I wonder why some people bother. Jon
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Post by jessy03 on Feb 19, 2018 21:06:14 GMT 1
I remember reading may be on here, steel liners last longer at say 70 degrees, cylinders that run at say 55 degrees are nickel plated rgv etc... Jess
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Post by jon on Feb 19, 2018 21:29:54 GMT 1
I remember reading may be on here, steel liners last longer at say 70 degrees, cylinders that run at say 55 degrees are nickel plated rgv etc... Jess Very intersteing Jess. I wouldn’t mind betting the Yamaha snow mobile 50 degree thermostat is for a nikasil bore and that’s why the difference. I seem to remember TZR stat is slightly lower that the YPVS stat. 67 degrees instead of 71 degrees? Aren’t they nikasil bores? Maybe the snowmobile is lower as in operates in lower temperatures? Jon
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Post by jessy03 on Feb 19, 2018 21:59:43 GMT 1
I wouldn’t worry too much, if it’s a mildly ported ypvs with a 55 degree stat and larger radiator it will run 65-70 degrees and I dout you will have any issues. What type of thermo switch was you going to use for the fan? all the ones I have found don’t go down as low 65-70 degrees? I’ve got fans running through a switch on the handle bars. Jess
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Post by midlifecrisisrd on Feb 19, 2018 22:37:53 GMT 1
I'm sure it was Kenny that told me about the target temp.
I changed from the 71 degree stat to the 50 to help stabilise the temp on warm up
With the 71 it would heat up till the stat opened then cool too much as the cold water from the rad flowed in.
This would make the stat shut again so the temp see sawed 2 or 3 times before settling
The 50 stat stops thiamine won't go under 65 degrees
It will sit at 85 in traffic, 75 on the motorway and 65 - 70 getting hammered
Steve
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Post by Tobyjugs on Feb 19, 2018 23:38:54 GMT 1
I think the problem with pootling around and sitting in traffic is the lack of flow in the cooling water circuit due to the low rpm. Ever since i saw mr Kiplings billet water pump gears iv'e been wondering if it is possible to make a set of gears to change the ratios. We could have a faster spinning water pump. Another thing which would be good for the system would be a proper thermostat housing.
Ive looked at the Wicked cool head and have seen some of the cooling water can bypass the cylinders and flow over the ridged combustion domes. This might not be a bad thing as most of the modern diesel's i work on have a lot less cooling around the liners. I do think it's a bit misleading for the temperature sensor to be fitted at the entrance of the cylinder head.
Just remember the more heat energy you take out of the engine also has to be removed from the cooling water.
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Post by jon on Feb 20, 2018 8:35:39 GMT 1
Thanks again guys for the responses.
Steve, interesting about the 50 degree stat.
Jessy03, I was planning on trying a Revotec one. These say they start at 70. I now see this will not be able to be fitted to th inlet side. Should be OK to start the fan at 70+ though.
Tobyjugs, interested to see results when it gets warmer.
Jon
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Post by Tobyjugs on Feb 20, 2018 9:05:59 GMT 1
Jon if you want to keep the bike running at an optimal temperature. I believe one of best mods would be a decent thermostat housing to keep the temperature stable. This is a lot easier to make for a YPVS engine.
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