Re: TZR250 3MA project, going back together!!!

[drzsimon]

Hi, not been on the forums for a while, thought I'd put up my new ride. Well, not so much of a ride as a project. Now I know October is give-up-smoking-month, but who can resist the temptation of a ride in the country - Marlboro country, well here's the Lincolnshire take on that - a TZR250 3MA reverse cylinder.

Quite pretty innit!











Overall for a 23 year old bike it's in very good condition, last owner over 10 years, plus he's a mate, paint (except for a bit of stress crazing) is holding up very well, the only bit of damage is the fairing top stay has snapped.

Frame's been powder coated black and was carefully rebuilt and greased so everything looks good. The owner is a bit anal as well, and although it's seen the odd bit of rain, he's kept on top of it.

So why did he sell it then?

It don't run. I've done a bit of looking into things and these are a bit common for the piston ring peg to wander out and the top ring turning into the exhaust port with pretty nasty consequences, usually on right-hand pot. Other issues are buggered powervalves leaking air and smearing the piston.

Whichever it is, they're a Nikasil coated barrel so no rebores...

This one just stopped, no drama, no warning. And after a long ownership my mate decided to sell. Now, the other week I sold my LC I've owned since 1994 as I just got fed up, I'd lost my mojo for it, much like he had for this, so I knew it'd be a good 'un.

Anyway more pics:



Easy to strip down:



Panels are better than expected:







Finally get to the pipes now:



They're big slurpers:)



Outski!



Little space made bigger:



So, into the garage and onto the bench. Got the top off, not looking too bad but it's still solid :



Aha! whats that then?



Must have been made by this:



That's the locating pin from the powervalve Its amazing that an alloy piston can move a hardened steel pin up a nikasiled barrel! Alloy's supposed to be softer!







Other side's perfect, bit of blow-by but it is on it's way to 20,000 miles on original rings and pistons!



So basically, it's done a powervalve, now the hunt begins for some 3MA barrels and valves

If anyone's got any info on where I can get some bits it would be much appreciated!

More news later on.

Thanks for looking.

Simon

[Bazille]

OUCH ;D

[LC_BOTT]

I had a similar experience with one, power valves were ok, but found the previous owner had got a knackered barrel, and fitted a steel liner to it. I went to BDK, and they had some ready plated 3MA barrels on the shelf, so a few hundred ££'s later or lighter, some new barrels/pistons, gaskets etc, all honed to match. Suggest giving them a call, as opening times aren't very reliable.
Nice looking bike BTW, is that a fibreglass bodykit? Or a Chinese knock off?

[drzsimon]

Oct 9, 2012 16:58:29 GMT 1 LC_BOTT said:

I had a similar experience with one, power valves were ok, but found the previous owner had got a knackered barrel, and fitted a steel liner to it. I went to BDK, and they had some ready plated 3MA barrels on the shelf, so a few hundred ££'s later or lighter, some new barrels/pistons, gaskets etc, all honed to match. Suggest giving them a call, as opening times aren't very reliable.
Nice looking bike BTW, is that a fibreglass bodykit? Or a Chinese knock off?

Thanks for the information. I've not heard of BDK, I'll google them for a number. The bodywork (as far as I'm aware) is all the original Yam stuff with the Marboro paint done by someone in Sheffield

[LC_BOTT]

The powervalves are unique to this model I think, so finding one might be tricky, Ezpezie on fleabay sometimes comes up with a few good parts.
Just looked at the pics again, fairing is replica, the originals have a seperate V panel, the battery flap is a lockable compartment, and the belly pan sides connect together with hinges and pins, but it still looks a good paintjob.
Have you joined the new TZR forum?
also, linky...
www.bdkraceeng.co.uk/#tuning

[AndyYam]

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Yamaha-TZR-250-3MA-cylinder-head-/261110788913?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts&hash=item3ccb6a7331

sure this guy also had a set of barrels listed. Might be worth an ebay msg.

[LC_BOTT]

He sold them as a BIN unfortunately.

[drzsimon]

Oct 9, 2012 18:50:04 GMT 1 LC_BOTT said:

The powervalves are unique to this model I think, so finding one might be tricky, Ezpezie on fleabay sometimes comes up with a few good parts.
Just looked at the pics again, fairing is replica, the originals have a seperate V panel, the battery flap is a lockable compartment, and the belly pan sides connect together with hinges and pins, but it still looks a good paintjob.
Have you joined the new TZR forum?
also, linky...
www.bdkraceeng.co.uk/#tuning

I was hoping it was original, it seems very well made but never mind
I've joined the TZR forum yes, I need all the help I can get on this one!

I emailed BDK, looking like £230+ the dreaded but they need to see it first. But that is pv sorted, welded, machined, coated back to new.

[LC_BOTT]

I'd be happy if the bodywork was good, so wouldn't worry there, looks like you're getting stuck in quickly I got charged an extra £25 for welding one of the barrels, as it was too badly 'chunked' so I would cost that in too, nearly fell over when I got the final bill, was around £500 from memory, and it was a runner to begin with, (don't know for how much longer though

[copper99]

be an interesting build, good luck with it and keep the pics coming...

[stevebozzy]

maybe Fahron engineering could help ?
he relines things


0115 963 4123 Ron is at Linby, Hucknall, Notts.


steve

[db8888]

try this www.langcourt.com/Cylinder_repairs_&_replating.htm

[weirdomagnet]

nice bike and i hope to keep an eye on your progress.hope you get the bits your after to get it running again.

[ngordoncrosby]

Great pic good luck with that

[Norbo]

Lovely bike i realy hope you get that barrel fixed . id give faron a call as well .

[drzsimon]

Thanks for the replies guys, here's the latest:

Well, next to cleaning all those impossible-to-get-at places on the bike itself while the lumps out and also take the fairing bracket off for powder coating and re-routing the wires properly.

After, I decided to attack the stuck powervavlve. Eventually it's out and it's a funny 'un.

Have a look at the piccies:



This is it together


And with the dowel in (from the other side, the right one is fused to the barrel )


Also, when removing the screw from the l/h/cylinder it wasn't particularly tight, more "nipped" than tight.

The r/h/cylinder wreckage is very odd; there's NO THREAD!!!!! I assume it's come loose through time/vibration/whatever, not been able to escape as the pulley wheel is in the way so it has been vibrating forward/aft and worn the threads away. Eventually, over the same period of time the pv's have been working slightly independent of each other and worn the alloy around the locating pin until it was thin enough to react to the pv opening and just spit the dowel into the cylinder.

So I was lucky with the other side as that would have been next. I assume the r/h side assembly gets more grief as its the one that has to drag not only itself but the other side as well.

Two things to note here:

1) It wouldn't have made a different noise when doing it's cleaning cycle as the damage has taken place over many hours/days/weeks/months.

2) Check how tight your pv bolts are, and I assume tighten with a dab of heat-resistant loctite on the thread.

This probably is applicable to all YPVS models as the idea is the same across all the range, from 125 to 500

Food for thought.

I'm arranging getting the barrel down to Langcourts and a forum member may have a replacement pv. I've located a new one and that may be an option but not sure yet as they're millions of quids

Ordering the pistons, rings, little ends and gaskets over the next couple of days as well so should have a report for you all soon.

Simon

[LC_BOTT]

Are you sure it hasn't been tuned and the PV's modified too? I'm sure the PV's have little 'fangs' on them, they look different to most Yam ones I've seen. I'll get a pic when i can find the PV's, but they were u/s too.

[drzsimon]

Oct 11, 2012 19:22:55 GMT 1 LC_BOTT said:

Are you sure it hasn't been tuned and the PV's modified too? I'm sure the PV's have little 'fangs' on them, they look different to most Yam ones I've seen. I'll get a pic when i can find the PV's, but they were u/s too.

No, it's all as Yamaha san designed it. Here's a better pic of it from the other angle:



Simon

[mboddy]

Oct 11, 2012 17:55:21 GMT 1 drzsimon said:

... a forum member may have a replacement pv. I've located a new one and that may be an option but not sure yet as they're millions of quids

We are having CNC files produced for 2XT and 3MA00 power valves.
It will probably be a while before we can have some billet valves ready but it may help in future.

[drzsimon]

Oct 12, 2012 22:01:19 GMT 1 mboddy said:

Oct 11, 2012 17:55:21 GMT 1 drzsimon said:

... a forum member may have a replacement pv. I've located a new one and that may be an option but not sure yet as they're millions of quids

We are having CNC files produced for 2XT and 3MA00 power valves.
It will probably be a while before we can have some billet valves ready but it may help in future.

It certainly will, these things aren't getting any younger and the quality of the pv's across the range as very poor.

Looks to be a lot of work though to keep the costs reasonable

[drzsimon]

Well, got a bit of an update:

While all the bits are winging their way to me through our reliable postal system, I thought I'd have a go at making it a bit more nice.

First job, sort out wiring, good clean up and podwercoat the fairing bracket:


The bike has been de-restricted so I just tidied up the dangling wiring and re-routed some cables. Difficut to photo though, it's one of those hour-long battles that you cannot justify by looking at a photo...

And then, this morning (Saturday) the postie brought these straight from Granbys:


Now, along with the Nikata's and RIK rings we have this little lot


Also tucked in there is a lovely second-hand pv supplied by Dan aka Maccas (off various forums). Top man, thanks a lot!

So, everything cleaned down and then treated to a cup full of 2 stroke out of the pipe I set about putting the rings on the piston and into the barrel.

It was a tight fit but I prefer doing it this way as there's a lot less chance of c**king the piston in the bore and upsetting the rings (although they seemed quite happy when they went in)


New little end in:


Barrel on and loads of silicone sealer on the base gasket:


Only joking about the silicone, its grease ;D

Seemed a bit odd putting the piston in the wrong way but someone put the exhausts where the carbs should be so I just went along with it


So that's it. Back together. Hopfully this mod should stop the right-hand cylinder failing again. I'm hoping to double the MPG as well.


While I was at it, the rest of the bike had to have a clean to the standard where I don't want to use it unless it hasn't rained for at leasy 30 days proir to taking it out


Fitted some mirrors as well. Previous owner didn't bother and the fact it wasn't secure has stressed the rest of the bodywork

I decided to make 4 rubber washers to put between the mirrors, fairing and stay to take a bit of stress out of the whole area:




One last thing, aimed at the 3MA boys really, is this pv connector the right one? It seems very heavy duty, but given its as heavy as a fat girls tit, it certainly grabs the pv tight, which is what we want




Got a telephone call from Langcourts and my barrel should be with me on Monday, so I'll update then.

When I know, you know!

Thanks for looking.

Simon

[Deleted]

Oct 9, 2012 18:50:04 GMT 1 LC_BOTT said:

The powervalves are unique to this model I think

WRONG! LOL

Firstly youve just wasted an hour of my life (researching this) lol, nice bike but not a 3xv (can't all be lucky lol).... anyway to the point i have the fishes for most yamaha two stroke power valves and believe it or not the valves are the same for each model eg:
TZR250R 3XV = 3VX-1131A-00 (x2)
TZR250 3MA = 3MA-1131A-00
3MA-1132A-00
TZR250 1KT/2MA = 1KT-1131A-00
1KT-1132A-00
Now if you know your yam id numbers the middle number is the important bit (front denotes model) middle the part, so ANY power valve for that side barrel (you dont say which) will fit EVEN from an rd350 ypvs.
you joined the tzr250 forum and havent found this yet...shame on them.....

www.pure-2-stroke-spirit.info/filebrowser/

saves me sending it you (doubtful massive file anyway lol)

so hope this helps..........

[drzsimon]

Oct 20, 2012 16:23:53 GMT 1 @jamietzr250r said:

Oct 9, 2012 18:50:04 GMT 1 LC_BOTT said:

The powervalves are unique to this model I think

WRONG! LOL

Firstly youve just wasted an hour of my life (researching this) lol, nice bike but not a 3xv (can't all be lucky lol).... anyway to the point i have the fishes for most yamaha two stroke power valves and believe it or not the valves are the same for each model eg:
TZR250R 3XV = 3VX-1131A-00 (x2)
TZR250 3MA = 3MA-1131A-00
3MA-1132A-00
TZR250 1KT/2MA = 1KT-1131A-00
1KT-1132A-00
Now if you know your yam id numbers the middle number is the important bit (front denotes model) middle the part, so ANY power valve for that side barrel (you dont say which) will fit EVEN from an rd350 ypvs.
you joined the tzr250 forum and havent found this yet...shame on them.....

www.pure-2-stroke-spirit.info/filebrowser/

saves me sending it you (doubtful massive file anyway lol)

so hope this helps..........

Yep, I am on the TZR forum, DRZSIMON, same as here. The project it on there as well.

I've read lots that the pv's are different just for the 3MA variants alone as the porting is different. But yes, I agree the numbers are the same.

I managed to pick one up that's from a 3MA00 (or 01, or 10 or something like that) so I can't tell you if there's any difference, only it looked the same as the one in the left

Anyway, soon see when the barrels back if it fits or not ;D

Can't wait for Monday, bet the weathers crap for the rest of the week

[Deleted]

Put it this way, why would Yamaha spend millions on r+d in the p/v design to then put a completely different one on each model? (ok the SPR guillotine type aside).
Just plain stupid and not very productive??

Try and find/get pictures of the different types it would put give you a definitive answer.....

[mboddy]

Oct 20, 2012 16:23:53 GMT 1 @jamietzr250r said:

Oct 9, 2012 18:50:04 GMT 1 LC_BOTT said:

The powervalves are unique to this model I think

WRONG! LOL

Sorry Jamie but you don't know what you are talking about. A whole hour researching!

I own power valves from RZ250, RD350YPVS, TZR250 2MA, TZR250 2XT and TZR250 3MA00. They are all different.
From what I have read on other posts on this forum there are three different 3MA power valve sets.

Currently 3MA00 and 2XT power valves are being scanned by us to create a CNC file so that we can get billet ones made.
Hoping to get the little pieces from the 3MA00 soon so we can replicate those too.

[drzsimon]

Right, got a bit more done!

After pulling my back again on Saturday night, damaging my discs and trapping my sciatic nerve again in less than 2 months I am full of doctor-prescribed class a's so actually managed to shuffle out of bed (with the borrowed crutches) and stand up long enough to do a bit of work and get some photos for you all!

First of all, the exhausts:


Yes they have been derestricted

Well, got the barrel back from Langcourts. What an amazing job they've done. I love it!




Can you tell which barrel has been away lol!


Taking on board what Paul at PJME said about the cutouts in the pistons on the Yam forum; "You will bleed exhaust gases from the sub ex ports back though the transfer ports due to the cut out above the G-pin.
The only piston you can use in the Wossner DT125R piston or the genuine Yamaha piston." :

I still have an issue with the pistons, see below:


Piston marked where the cut-out is, and now in the barrel:




This is the (good side) piston showing that exhaust gasses do get round there:


So yes, it does break into the transfer port, but after a lengthy conversation with a(nother) company who know what they're doing they say "theoretically" it will be detrimental, but also putting in Wossner pistons will also not be as good as they are made differently (forged) and therefore are better for 4-strokes due to the close piston/cylinder clearances 2-strokes employ.

Two lads on the TZR forum said they have fitted and used the Nikata pistons with no adverse problems, Paul at PJME had a bike that wouldn't run right with them in?

So, short of putting genuine in shall I just take the risk they'll be OK?

Simon

[steve h]

During all the fiddling in the past when refitting barrels & worrying about damaging the rings, it never occurred to me to fit the pistons first!!! Thanks Simon

[drzsimon]

Oct 23, 2012 20:16:27 GMT 1 steve h said:

During all the fiddling in the past when refitting barrels & worrying about damaging the rings, it never occurred to me to fit the pistons first!!! Thanks Simon

Just make sure you put LOTS of rags in the crank hole, also put a white sheet down around the bike because as much as eggs is eggs, you'll lose a piston circlip and it'll either go down the crankcase or shoot off into the dusty mire never to be seen again!

[steve h]

Does'nt matter about a circlip in the crankcase!!! Lee Brocklebank used to keep his spares in there!!!!!!

[mikee]

Do the pistons on those not go in the wrong way round ?
I.E the arrow pointing to the back of the motor