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Post by JonW on Oct 24, 2011 8:29:31 GMT 1
Pulled the bike off the center stand and for the first time in a very long time (the previous few owners had been restoring this frame for years before i got it), this bike is back on its wheels.... its quite a revelation... Ok so its go no engine and no fuel on board, but its light as a feather. the suspension seems firm but not overly and the bike is the right height for my shortish inside leg. The CR bend MX bars have a good reach and im happy they are ok for my mix of city and country riding and the rearsets are also not too extreme, and have my feet at a pretty decent position as the bars are more forward than standard etc. So am i happy with the setup? ...so far, erm... yes! Did a few more small jobs... I fitted the OEM Suzuki speedo cable. You need the Suzi one as the axle end is too small for the RD cable, and the Suzi one fits the RD clock properly. And, its said that you need the OEM one as the aftermarket units are slightly shorter... The downside is that my bike is running the 6pots, and whilst I reckon this cable is a perfect for a 4pot (standard RGV brake calipers) setup as it would curve under the caliper, on the 6pots the lower pot is in the way... so ive had to have it rest on the caliper... annoying, but i cant see a way round it, if i route it up past the caliper bolts, the cable is way too long. hmm... Also fitted my stainless RGV disk bolts from ebay. Bought them from a chap in the UK and theyre superb. I didnt have any of the original shouldered bolts so was forced to buy some whatever as no one i knew had any, and these were great. nice quality and fitted properly in the holes in the disks and the hub.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2011 8:50:42 GMT 1
quite a milestone getting her up on its feet,was for me anyway, well done
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Post by JonW on Oct 24, 2011 8:55:09 GMT 1
Thanks Ken! Yep indeed it is a milestone... like the first fire up and the first ride etc.
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Post by scott on Oct 25, 2011 20:33:03 GMT 1
great work jon and great detail in description in ur thread m8. i know what u mean about the speedo cable i have the same problem with the rgv calipers fitted to my 31k.
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Post by JonW on Oct 25, 2011 22:49:24 GMT 1
Thanks m8, Im hoping it will be useful for anyone who wanted to do the same sort of thing later. I may just ditch the speedo cable and run R1 clocks, but i didnt want the added complication first out with this bike, we'll see...
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Post by nikfubar on Oct 25, 2011 22:59:45 GMT 1
Side stand looks great what's it from, R6 R1 clocks are a pain to fit plus expensive when you have to buy a speed healer as well. Could you get a longer speedo cable made up? I fitted a Vapor to my last one & was lucky enough to get a set of titanium wheel spacers of ebay which included one that replaced the speedo drive.
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Post by JonW on Oct 25, 2011 23:05:18 GMT 1
Nick stand is Triumph T595 / Daytona 955i etc. Stands on it nice, so its the perfect length i reckon.
I already have the R1 clocks as they were originally destined for another project. Only thing i dont have is the speedo healer...
I could get a longer speedo cable, but it does fit 'ok' really, just rests on the caliper as its sort of sprung loaded so needs some padding to stop it melting if they get hot.
Ti spacers would be nice! good score m8. There are still spacers are out there on ebay still in Alloy i think, or easy to have made i guess. or just run the speedo drive and not the cable of course.
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Post by JonW on Oct 25, 2011 23:06:35 GMT 1
I should also state that the stand idea isnt mine, I copied it shamelessly from Chris whos LC421 is just peachy imho. My original idea to use the R1 stand i had was much more complicated and the Triumph unit fits very well with what i consider pretty minimal mods.
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Post by nikfubar on Oct 26, 2011 0:17:26 GMT 1
Damm that stand looks good, got to make a new one for mine too late to use one of those though as the frames finished
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Post by JonW on Oct 26, 2011 0:33:48 GMT 1
I said that Nick... JFDI I say... The only part you really need to mess with on the frame is the pin, grind the weld, knock it through and reweld on the back... a little lick of paint and its done and i dont think you'll see it. To stop the stand falling through the LC's stop, have about 8mm of alloy welded inside the 'trough' on the stand itself... job done.
I only added a paddle to my frame as I wanted to be sure it wouldnt fall... belt n braces really.
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Post by JonW on Oct 27, 2011 12:57:45 GMT 1
Busy few days building up the engine for this bike... Started with the bottom end... This unit is an Aussie spec 1GA, so that means it started life as a 250 and I bought from a wrecker about a year back when it came up for sale, as amazingly it has no case damage... Unheard of pretty much these days over here (and probably elsewhere too!). So first things first... it all got a clean and a bit of paint on the top and some blasting on the lower half, and then as you've seen earlier (previous page I think) I port matched the transfers to the case. In the top half I added a 31k rev counter drive as I want to use the LC clocks, at least initially. This was easy to fit as the holes are already there in these later cases, I only needed to retap the bolt hole for the plastic tacho cable connector as it was full of crud/paint etc. as it had never been used. Fitted a new clutch arm bearing and seal of course whilst I was there. To the lower half I did the usual build up and then fitted all new kickstart idler gear and its washers and clips from Yamaha. I find the idlers on these old engines can be wobbly all over the place and this one was no exception. Parts are cheap enough to just replace so I did. Also to get a nice positive shifting action I added a Shift Pro kit, some people might mock these, but I find I struggle to get neutral without one as I dont ride the same bike daily so don't get to know it as well as id like and these seem to help so ive fitted them to all the engines ive done recently.
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Post by JonW on Oct 27, 2011 12:58:21 GMT 1
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Post by JonW on Oct 27, 2011 12:59:05 GMT 1
A quick 'How to' on these pancake bearing clutch pushers... Mine came from Wicked, but seems a few guys sell them now. Anyway, using the OEM nut and washer and adjuster rod in the new pusher, thread it so that about 2 threads protrude on the outside of the nut. Hand fit the cover (ie just hold it flat on the clutch, don't hold the nut or the pusher, let it be loose) and move the clutch arm, you will feel when it takes up the slack and starts to move the clutch, when that happens the arm should be at the arrow mark. If not, readjust the adjuster until it is and then lock it off by holding the new pusher from the back (it has flats for this) and winding the nut against it. Job done. Ok, not quite as simple as OEM, but easy enough when you get your head round it and its peace of mind. That comes from the fact that it's got a bearing in it so the pusher isnt captive to the clutch cover and so it stops the single large ball bearing in the system welding itself to the rod as the clutch cover is no longer captive to the pushing mechanism hence reducing heat. Without this mod sometimes the heat build up can lead to the pusher rod and the ball bearing welding themselves together. Not good of course... $30 fix... Seems simple insurance.
Fitted one of Norbos natty allen key drain plugs as well in the hope I can drain the oil without having to remove the pipes, but the pipes are pretty fat, but one can hope!
To finish off the oily bits I added a NOS (term used loosely as the banshee ones are still available fro yamaha at around $115) clutch cover. These come bare and I fitted a new water pump seal and bearing and an Uprated waterpump impeller that has a higher rate of flow and to top it off a new dipstick + o'ring seal from uncle Norbo.
One thing about these covers and maybe also any other cover you might be fitting if you have the waterpump off... Look up the pump towards the engine and see if it's blocked... On mine the casting flashing wasn't too well removed (seems this is done by hand at the factory) so I got out the Dremel and the burrs and opened it up fully... Im fitting a higher rate pump and it would be silly to have a restirction stopping it doing it's good work.
Im going to run this bike on premix for now, until TSS sorts out the new oil pump plan for their 421 and then I will run that. So in the meantime I added an OEM blanking plate, its a banshee part and cheap from Yamaha.
Cover was fitted with new gaskets and also new stainless allen head bolts from Yambits. Cheaper than I could buy the bolts here :/ Clutch cover also fitted with a stainless steel Yamaha disk which is for when the window gets cut into this cover... A future mod... Disk is a cheapie off ebay and not that sexy I think... Im in two minds about it.
Decided that as I want to get this engine in the bike to sort out my pipes that I didn't want to bother messing with stator and flywheel until it was in. that reduces the weight and gives me something to do later when im also sorting out the wiring.
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Post by JonW on Oct 27, 2011 12:59:43 GMT 1
Moving on to the top end I fitted the Wiseco 573 'Blaster' pistons which were fitted as I didnt want to run a spacer plate. Roger scoured the sets of cylinders he had to find ones with ports in places that suited me as the castings can differ and these pistons are more offset to cope with the long throw crank but still need the domes cutting as the pistons will run slightly into he head, I had those done in LA as well of course. Pistons went in with new little end bearings from TSS that came with the crank, i think they are also Peek coated, but dont know for sure. Checked the ring gaps and using Wisecos specs they should be 0.27mm, and my not so great measurements have it at .30 so no chance of too much ring expansion at least, and not far enough out to worry about compression loss either from what ive read. Slid on the Athena 68mm barrels using the sexy looking Athena bottom gaskets and then fitted my slightly wonky (after the welding) Athena cool head once the domes were test fitted. These were previously recessed by Roger at Wicked to account for the pistons running into the head due to the +4mm crank. Fitting the head... Well lets just say its a b$%@#$*d of a job if you don't know how to do it... The thing has 3 sets of o-rings and two free floating domes...all that means you've a lot of loose parts to fall out once you turn it over... I emailed Roger.... He laughed and told me the trick is to grease the o rings to hold them in and fit the domes first on the engine, which you should have already leveled so the cyls are horizontal or the domes will slide off... LOL. Its a simple job once you know that, but fiddly to get right as everything needs to be set up almost spot before you slip over the head. I hope I have not pinched an o ring... Time will tell I guess. Athena provides its own head bolts and and I used them with slightly thinner washers as Roger advised me that the studs are really only just long enough as they are, and every little bit of extra thread helps when they're torqued. As you can see Athena doesn't list the order number for the bolts on the head so I had to write them on with pencil LOL Easy to remove of course... Im happy to say that Roger was right, the slight (and it was very slight) warpage to the head was easily taken up by tightening the head bolts. To be honest looking at the casting, its just a cover that holds the domes in position and is very recessed for water to flow thru, that means its like a 3 sided cage and being alloy its quite malleable and im sure after a few heat cycles it will just stay the shape its now clamped in, although as i said it was only very slightly out.. of course starting it with water in will soon tell us if i am right!
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Post by JonW on Oct 27, 2011 13:00:35 GMT 1
DISASTER!!!! At this point I realised two things.... They meant that I had no option but to tear down the whole engine again... I'll tell you about that tomorrow....
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Post by nikfubar on Oct 27, 2011 13:28:58 GMT 1
O wots happened
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Post by JonW on Oct 27, 2011 22:39:41 GMT 1
Thanks guys, yeah it happens of course... We always hope we know best and what we are doing but sometimes stupid things, not the best light, working at the end of the day and such like mean that things get missed.... no excuses, im sure the Pros do it too... So the two things that meant that I had no option but to tear down the whole engine again... No 1 ----- Since the engine was done, I was clearing up all the tools and packets from the new parts etc as I didn't have enough time to fit the motor that day. My plan was to clear up and get ready for the next chapter of this huge Airfix kit, ie. the exhaust. Opened up some boxes for the flange parts and pulled them out and lo n behold inside the bag of flanges, springs and o rings etc were two lozenge shaped rubber bungs that should be fitted under the cyls... Oh Bugger! Its tempting to blame the packer (Roger! LOL), but it's actually my fault as I had him seal up all the parts gathered together in bags so I didn't lose anything when transporting this lot home from LA.... The TSA have a habit of opening up checked baggage that looks 'different' and then to get to the bit they want to look at they chuck bits of the contents all over the place... sigh... im not a terrorist, just an urban guerrilla with a loud pipe on a sunday morning.... So I defo didn't want to lose any of the small bits in the travel process so things were bagged and sealed. And it worked well in fact as they did open up one of my bags, but it wasn't the one with the two bazooka shaped exhaust pipes for this bike, instead it was the one with the CR250 cylinders, who knows why?! They ripped open the bubble wrap, cut the box and left it all loose in the bag, they also left the handles unclipped on the bag so when it was pulled from the plane by one handle it got ripped open, luckily noting fall out of the 8inch diameter hole... so I was right to have Roger seal up the bags and have parts sealed in boxes etc. Well i was right about travel... I wasnt right to not check all the bits before i built the engine LOL I guess most bike people won't know what these bungs are as we have RD/RZs not Banshees. The banshee cylinder isnt solid at the bottom like the YPVS cyls and instead has a long hole with this rubber bung pushed in it. The Athena cylinders come with the hole for this roughly cast and it needs to be ground out with burrs to match the bungs, and that's part of the $40 fettle that Wicked does on these kits, well worth it I reckon. Fitting these is simple and I added a little bit of 1104 just to be sure they stayed in place once it was all fitted. No 2 ----- The big one... I hadnt noticed but when fitting the crank, the stator side seal had sliped and the dropped off the crank... School boy error of course... and I should have noticed that but I just didn't look at that side at all during the build... Im still kicking myself. So I whipped it all apart, in a about 20mins... and it all went back together quickly after the 1211 was cleaned off the case halves, this time remembering the crank seal and also sorting out a slight rocking motion I had in the cases on one of the new bearings which I had played with the first time, but this time totally eradicated. So at the end of yesterday I now had this... Almost ready to fit... Just needs induction side doing now....
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2011 22:51:18 GMT 1
lucky you caught it in time and werent going hell for leather trying to start it.
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Post by JonW on Oct 27, 2011 22:56:22 GMT 1
LOL how true Ken... Or even fitted more bits to it and then had put it in the bike... LOL
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Post by JonW on Oct 28, 2011 12:09:12 GMT 1
A few more jobs before the induction went on.... Finally got the remnants of the old water pump gasket off an old water pump cover plate I had on another engine cover and fitted it with a new gasket and the original bolts as they were still ok, rare i know! Ideally I will fit one of the natty easy drain alloy plates but I don't have one and didn't want to leave it open to the elements any more than I have to so it was time well spent. Before I closed it up I took a photo of the hole I widened up on the inside 'pipe run' of the nos cover, as mentioned yesterday... This is about twice the size the factory employee left it... Hmm... Makes me wonder what my other engine on my '85 F1 is like with another nos cover on it now... More work there before I run that one I reckon... I also fitted the hose from the pump to the head, I used one of the silicone hose kits from Norbo and used stainless steel jubilee clamps I found in the local hardware store, Bunnings... Its B&Q for Aussies! These clamps have a smooth underside which is vitally important for silicone hoses... The ones with the slots or the worn drive showing through will tear through your sexy and expensive silicone hoses in seconds... Been there and done that when building a turbo car years ago... So, Please buy flat backed ones if you have silly hoses, you will thank me for that tip! Then fitted up the two water drain bolts on the sides of the cyls using stainless bolts and fibre washers... Ok a quick test... How many of you didn't notice they were missing in the previous posts/pics?! LOL (I should also add that I have also fixed the clutch arm clamp a while back in case anyone notices that in the early pics of the engine rebuild as well, I always seem to put it back on the wrong bolt for some reason and then have to swap it... LOL) Now then.... Its time for some Induction! To cope with the gulping air appetite of this 'Mighty Motor' (for those with bigger engines these will seem small so maybe I can say 'mighty-ish'?!), I added Vforce3 reeds which were port matched by Roger to his Wicked X-over manifold when I was in LA. I fitted these with the bolts provided and the gaskets from the Vforce kit, but added stainless washers on the stainless bolts. I did have to shave a small edge off the washers for the lower bolts as the alloy is close to the bolts there. I always feel its better to run washers on painted or alloy parts... These manifolds include the crossover tube inside the unit. They are two piece and CNC'd from billet of course. You can fit all sorts of carbs to these using rubber mounts which you specify when you buy the unit, and I don't yet have my mounts as I didn't know the exact carb plan when I was in LA so left the mounts til later. FWIW, I plan to run Keihin PJ34s on this bike but don't have them yet. So this is where the engine will have to sit and wait for a bit... So ive blanked off the inlets to keep any moisture at bay, not that summer is Aus is usually that moist... Ok, an admission.... I still don't have a use for the two nuts and washers that were in a small bag inside the Vforce kit in the middle of the photo below... I actually don't think they go with the Vforce units, I think they ended up in there as it was a safe place for them to travel... I wonder if I will find out what they are for eventually LOL! NB: At this point someone on another forum pointed out that TSS now refute their own claims at balance on these cranks... Which seems bizarre. I know TSS has its issues and Steve is airing them this week and yes there are plenty of threads about that elsewhere, so please don't comment here. But, ive ridden bikes with this balanced crank and its smooth, so not sure what this latest revelation is all about. Anyway as I said there: its in the bike; im not worried; I cant see me getting any refund anyway; it looked and felt like a nice quality crank when fitted, everything lined up fine in my motor and it all turns over nice...
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Post by christyres on Oct 28, 2011 23:44:03 GMT 1
Not sure how high your manifolds are by picture jon but my manifolds with 35mm carbs rubbed on the clutch arm so I straightened mine which gave enough clearance,you my already know this but thought I'd tell ya anyway it was something I didn't check first time round and you ain't the only one who's making mistakes I just finished putting the engine all connected up and pushed the gear lever down and it stayed down ,forgot to fit spring and nylon bush on me brand new gear selector what a t**t
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Post by JonW on Oct 29, 2011 10:05:15 GMT 1
Thanks Chris, great info! i am planning on running PJ34s... and im not sure how high the manifold fits so without the carbs im just not sure on how this will go together... clearance is always an issue of course when adding bigger stuff to things like the LC. LOL, mate... you're as bad as me... welcome to the club!
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Post by nikfubar on Oct 29, 2011 10:14:08 GMT 1
Wow very you must have deep pockets Wish I'd seen earlier what you did to your pump casing, good idea too bloody late now
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Post by JonW on Oct 29, 2011 13:55:04 GMT 1
Sadly not Nick... Just a very empty wallet Interesting talking of costs and thinking about how much this bike will set anyone back who wanted to build one... Like restoring and rebuilding any and all RDs, and more so if its modded bikes, it's a life choice i reckon.... A normal LC is fine, but i wanted the RGV front n rear ends and also a faster motor... that plan just floated my boat i guess... im funny like that LOL! So, since i was mindful of budget, when setting out on the build I decided that to keep costs down (I am defo not a rich man!) so not only would i go with tried and tested and proven mods and technologies, and i would also do as much work as i could myself, so as youve seen throughout the thread much of the chassis stuff was procured by me and via friends, and most of the work has been done by lil ole me... And yeah, Ive done a lot fo scouring the net for parts and services. That said, the motor was always going to be costly, tho in real terms not that much more expensive that converting my old 250 YPVS to a 350 it seems... For that build i neeed 350cyls, PVs, pistons, rebores etc etc, so the Athena kit Ive found works out at superb value for money, especially for its price/performance, but to get the best out of it you cant just fit the old VM26s and the old manifolds or the old pipes and the old ignition of course... they would strangle it just a tad, thats where the costs mount up.... Crank was about double the cost of a standard item and Id have fitted aftermarket pipes anyway and Wicked's are some of the best value (and tuned for this size motor), plus i already have sets of Gibsons and TSA (Kenny) on other builds. To conserve my coin I did plan ahead and so bought most of these parts when i was in the USA earlier this year, and as such I saved a packet on post... I would advise anyone to do the same if they can, plus it was a revelation dropping in on Wicked when in LA! we had a good time and I got to ride bikes in LA traffic, who wouldnt want that experience?! ...but i will say that whilst re-building any engine isnt a cheap thing to do if done right, building one with so many new parts is certainly never going to be a low cost thing to do. But... I wanted to get around 80bhp, and this was the cheapest way to do it using proven off the shelf parts with mild mods. Plus its all new, ive been there before doing work on parts that sellers tell me are 'mint', and one mans mint is another mans trash i reckon... Some of the parts are cheapish tho, high flow impellers ($60ish) and nos side cases ($115) are cheap stateside, its just in places like the UK and Aus that we pay thru the nose for em, especially from Yamaha Some things cost a bit but actually financially make sense, like the full Athena kit; US$720ish for new cyls, head and pistons with top end gaskets etc seems good value when you consider buying new pistons and having a rebore for a standard 350. Sadly i ruined the good value as I had also bought Wiseco's so that i didnt need a silly spacer plate which added to the cost. but... $180 for the new pistons, and then $100 back on ebay for the never used Athena's... and now it starts to make a bit more sense etc. I will agree that the cross over manifold and Vforce3's werent cheap items and they are super sexy 'bike bling', but they were cheaper than anywhere else i could find similar items back with uncle Wicked (like all the parts i bought), but whilst not cheap perhaps, those parts were where the cash was best spent really as they help the engine to fly... the cost of the rest of the engine is pretty normal for the build and even the PJ34s are about $350 and come jetted close to what i need which is only double over some old used PWK28s that might not come complete, as i found out when going that route on the YPVS i did... sometimes new can save you time and money as I found out then... I dont advocate it for every item, but do the research i guess, these things change over time. What is perhaps funny to some reading this, is that i dont feel this is an outrageous build. The 421 Athena is really just the start of the big cc engines with new cyls. Whilst i was visiting Wicked, Roger showed me the upper end of the market... Billet CNC cases and single casting 600cc twin cyls and a bunch of other very cool stuff he had there for customer builds (and bear in mind that now fuel injection is on the horizon). With the big cyls it seems that 150bhp+ is expected and can be set up for drag, race and all sorts depending on porting. The Banshee guys in the USA spend serious money for street race bikes and also for fun, makes our normal bike builds look like chicken feed really, but its just a different market I guess. So yep, a few sheckels spent and more to go for sure, but it should be fun when done and i dont intend to sell it, just use and enjoy it. fingers crossed i like it when its done LOL
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Post by JonW on Oct 29, 2011 13:58:58 GMT 1
Wish I'd seen earlier what you did to your pump casing, good idea too bloody late now you could whip it off and redo it, easy to check the hole without too much hassle as well... just 5 bolts and a quick drain of the coolant...
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Post by lb on Oct 30, 2011 15:13:48 GMT 1
Very cool Jon,to see you getting it done! When is the exhaust getting looked at?
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Post by lcowner on Oct 30, 2011 15:53:11 GMT 1
thats a good idea ,might do mine with a dremel
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Post by nikfubar on Oct 30, 2011 16:21:54 GMT 1
Yeah I see what you mean Jon I spent a grand on my engine with new parts, tuning etc could have sold the bits & put the money towards going your route & I expect there wouldn't have been a lot in it It's ready for first start up, not taking anything off now unless I have to, so the water pump will have to wait ;D
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Post by JonW on Oct 30, 2011 22:16:21 GMT 1
Very cool Jon,to see you getting it done! When is the exhaust getting looked at? Jason, yeah we move ever forwards... well the next stage is to put it in the bike and mock up the pipes with everything else. Then those can get welded and coated whilst i finish the electrics and sort the carbs, then ive no excuse but to start it up i guess... eeek!
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Post by JonW on Oct 30, 2011 22:17:16 GMT 1
thats a good idea ,might do mine with a dremel Easy enough to do with a sand paper roll fitted or better still a small burr. I used the same ones i did the engine cases with, took only a few mins.
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