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Post by JonW on Nov 14, 2012 21:56:39 GMT 1
haha, well I should have finishes by now, but to be honest the brakes have been the worst part. Ive suffered seal and piston issues with this rear caliper, and a calipers that had a broken nipple before that. And the fronts have never bled up well at all, and ive done them countless times. Ive also replaced the reservior to master hoses a few times as they kept sweating...
...dont let anyone tell you building specials is easy LOL lucky we love em...
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Post by billy on Nov 15, 2012 21:22:37 GMT 1
haha, well I should have finishes by now, but to be honest the brakes have been the worst part. Ive suffered seal and piston issues with this rear caliper, and a calipers that had a broken nipple before that. And the fronts have never bled up well at all, and ive done them countless times. Ive also replaced the reservior to master hoses a few times as they kept sweating... ...dont let anyone tell you building specials is easy LOL lucky we love em... Maybe the front brake bleed problem is more like.... pads not worn in yet? If the pads are not worn in, it'll feel like there is air in the brake system. At least that's what it felt like on my 350 LC.
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Post by JonW on Nov 15, 2012 23:35:35 GMT 1
Thats an interesting point Billy, you could well be right. the problem I have is that with my GSXR1000 radial master the lever will come back to the bars in position 1 on the master, and on 6 it is still very close.
I do agree that there must be something fundamentally wrong in the system for it to be like this, and badly aligned pistons (suggested by Ravedaddy ages back) or pads which dont match the disk would do this as you say.
Ive bled this system so many times that I am starting to agree that maybe this is indeed my issue...
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Post by JonW on Nov 24, 2012 14:14:59 GMT 1
I'm pleased to say Ive finally got the story of this bike fully updated til where it is now on my website, phew! My RD350LC 421cc AthenaI have also condensed and updated, rewritten and improved and put my 1985 F1 YPVS on my website as well. Never underestimate the slog that goes into such a task is what I say, I sure did when I originally professed that I would have the updates done in a week... oops... it took more like 3 months! The story of my 85 F1 RZ350 bike can now be found by clicking this link: Jon's 1985 RZ350 that was a RZ250 YPVS F1....and the full site (with more upgrades - R6 shock / Zeel info / links etc etc) is here: Full 2smoked.com website
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Post by nikfubar on Nov 24, 2012 16:05:14 GMT 1
Come on Jon ;D about time you finished & start thrashing it before the tyres perish
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Post by JonW on Nov 25, 2012 0:28:17 GMT 1
LOL, Ive been so busy on so many things, sigh... Its the usual thing, you can either have money or time. I picked up some writing work for some good names (Vanity Fair for example) and couldnt turn it down of course. What that meant was that I have time on the train to update things like texts for websites but I'm not in the garage doing things... excuses, excuses!
Anyway, Ive got a few days this week that I hope to play bikes. I do have some places to be but I want to get the wheel alignment and chain alignment on this LC421 nailed. Its been bugging me for the longest time and Im sick of it.
Any thoughts and help anyone has in how to check alignment of the chain is much appreciated, getting the wheels straight I have a plan for now...
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Post by JonW on Nov 26, 2012 13:41:34 GMT 1
Think I have finally nailed the wheel and chain alignments...
This is a job that has haunted me for the longest time and meant more than a few sleepless nights. While normally using NK's RGV-in-a-LC setup is simple and easy to do and its well documented that you run no spacers or offset sprockets and youre sorted.
But.... NK didnt weld my swinger or do the cutting down of the sides, that was done locally. So I had no real starting point, plus I didnt know where the wheel lines up for the axle on the swinger as I powdered my arm so it has no datum points...
Today I did the string method for aligning the wheels... it was rubbish. dont bother. It did help me get the front wheel straight, but you can do that by eye really.
In the end to align the rear wheel I cut two lengths of alloy L angle and clamped them to the rear wheel and measured the ends from the front edge of the front tyre. when they were level it was straight. I marked those points with tippex.
I then removed some of the 1mm spacers I was using to get the alignment at the sprocket, these are actually Norbos sprocket tabs - his are flat unlike the OEMs so make good 1mm spacers!
In the end I realised with no spacers the chain run was fine. Adjusted the wheel up and it rolls nice and true. phew.
Is it perfect? probably not... my measuring was a bit Heath Robinson, but it's close enough that I'm happy to ride it like that, Im sure ive ridden bikes that were way further out LOL!
Next some more tuning....
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Post by JonW on Nov 30, 2012 6:07:48 GMT 1
One of the final jobs to do on the LC was fit another temp gauge and/or sender to the bike as the OEM clock gauge never moves when I run it up. Hmm... I didn't fancy pulling the clocks apart and I'm pretty positive the sender is ok, so the job had been left... LOL Local boy Aaron emailed me a few weeks back as he had located a natty water temp unit from the same seller who I discovered when looking for a remote thermostat for this bike. I thought 'that's nice and only $80, I'll get one', but I couldn't find it on the sellers website so hit ebay, and before I knew it Id found a KOSO unit that ran off the bike's 12v and would work at night as it was listed as 'LED' (Ok, it is probably a backlit LCD, but who would split such hairs?), nice extra features and best of all I snagged it for half what the local one would have cost me, cant say fairer than that! It arrived today and it looked good. Ok, firstly the instructions are in Chinese as it was from a Taiwanese seller but considering the price and the fact it has a sender with a plug hat only goes one way round, and only two 'loose wires', 1 red and 1 black, how hard can it be? In fact there were pictures in the instructions for those who couldn't work the obvious out, perfect. Side note: Amusingly the unit came boxed with 2 KOSO stickers, inviting me to 'feel the speed'. They amused me, Id rather 'know my water temp', but hey what can you do?! These units are not listed as 'waterproof' (lets not even get in the semantics of what that really means in this world of litigation and over extended claims for products and users who defy logic), and they may well be ok, but I had a plan... I taped the sides round the join, filled it with clear silicone and then rubbed the lot down with a rag with mineral turps on it to clean off any residue. I also put a good blob where the wires go into the unit. Is it perfect, who knows, but my piece of mind is better and I wont worry about it in the rain. Ignore the finger prints, they all wiped off leaving a nice shiny black KOSO underneath. Connections were, of course, simple... Earth from the usual spot behind the coil and switched +12v from the same place I got the power for the Zeel, in fact that is actually the oil sender as I am not using it on my bike as I run Premix. A small bracket for my crossbar was fashioned from an old piece of spare steel for something else, some foam feet from a whiteboard I purloined from Royal Mail's chuckouts many years back for my home office, and some cable ties, and then I affixed the unit to the bracket with the included velcro. Simples... but it isnt very solid, but that may work in its favour for longevity due to the vibes of the bike. The finished article: (and yes it was 36DegC with the bike not running today... Gonna be a hot summer!) Ran the bike up and the temp goes up too... So it sure looks like its working as designed. Sitting back I reckon it was a bargain. I used this as an excuse to swap the coolant for some natty dayglo reddy/pink stuff I bought as well... We get ever closer to a registered machine! apart form the fact one of my fork legs is weeping from the top joint of the collar, above the seal! mental early RGV VJ22 forks, sigh!
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Post by JonW on Dec 17, 2012 9:26:57 GMT 1
I think I hate brakes... hmm....
Im not convinced my rear caliper isnt still leaking and Ive been playing with my 6pots and realise they need a complete overhaul with new seals and cleaning up the pistons, sigh! I looked out the old RGV calipers today and thought about refurbing them instead...
I also clamped the lower hoses on the calipers one at a time and tested the master with each on its own. the left 6pot was way worse for shipping fluid than the right but both were soaking up my 'lever'. What it did prove is that my radial master is rock hard when working right, so its defo not that... one bit of good news.
Anyone have any advice on rebuilding RGV 4pot calipers cheaply and what are good pads? Im tempted to go that route now to get on the road...
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Post by midlifecrisisrd on Dec 17, 2012 10:25:00 GMT 1
I think I hate brakes... hmm.... Im not convinced my rear caliper isnt still leaking and Ive been playing with my 6pots and realise they need a complete overhaul with new seals and cleaning up the pistons, sigh! I looked out the old RGV calipers today and thought about refurbing them instead... I also clamped the lower hoses on the calipers one at a time and tested the master with each on its own. the left 6pot was way worse for shipping fluid than the right but both were soaking up my 'lever'. What it did prove is that my radial master is rock hard when working right, so its defo not that... one bit of good news. Anyone have any advice on rebuilding RGV 4pot calipers cheaply and what are good pads? Im tempted to go that route now to get on the road... Brakes really have to be perfect to work properly. Had a set with no bite. New lines,master,fluid and calipers rebuilt. Turns out the discs were worn ( within limits but slightly grooved ), fitted new ones and were amazing. The 4 pots will be good if you use them but if the pistons are ok there is not much in cost between them. Got 6 pots on mine and are amazing at speed but a bit grabby when going slow in traffic. If you are doing the 4 pots I don't think you will get cheaper than these ( 2 caliper kit ) www.ebay.co.uk/itm/160831488682?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649And if the pistons need changing you will need 2 of these instead ( 1 caliper kit ) www.ebay.co.uk/itm/370643252898?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649And seal kit for 6 pots here ( 2 caliper kit ) www.ebay.co.uk/itm/150958311406?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649Used one of their kits on the earlier RGV 4 pots and had no problems. If buying the 4 pot kit measure the pistons first as there are 2 sizes depending on what the calipers were off. Steve
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Post by JonW on Dec 17, 2012 22:58:25 GMT 1
Thanks to all who PMd and for Steve for posting on here... I might just rebuild both sets of calipers and see which I like better... I'll be knee deep in brake fluid for a while, grr...
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Post by JonW on Jan 25, 2013 12:47:19 GMT 1
Emailed the seller of the kits for the 6pots as nothing had landed and he's sending another set... sigh... its not easy to finish this bike it seems, the spirits are working against me...
Good news... the rear caliper no longer leaks, the new pistons did the trick. Amazing that even with the leak the back brake was solid as it is now. its a very strong brake for a small bike...
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Post by JonW on Feb 1, 2013 3:02:44 GMT 1
Thanks to a great forumer I have a new headlight rim and its satin black. Thanks mate!
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Post by JonW on Feb 1, 2013 3:04:13 GMT 1
And the other day a tiny (not) kit of parts landed to rebuild the six pots.. I arranged the parts accidentally in the shape of Australia... LOL Can you believe how many parts there are in these kits! LOL
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Post by Trubrit on Feb 1, 2013 8:00:09 GMT 1
Thanks to a great forumer I have a new headlight rim and its satin black. Thanks mate! Lookin Good ...
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Post by JonW on Feb 1, 2013 13:39:56 GMT 1
Cheers Dave! I was thinking of fitting an angel eye to the bike at this time, but worry about getting through the big MOT (called a 'blue slip') that i need to get this bike back on the road. maybe later
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Post by JonW on Feb 2, 2013 12:34:36 GMT 1
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Post by JonW on Feb 6, 2013 13:15:20 GMT 1
Ok, calipers rebuilt... will add pics soon. They were gungy and the seals were sticking the pistons for sure. Bled them and they are better but they still take a lot of lever travel which seems is the way with these units.
Im thinking of new brake pads to be sure its not the older pads that are my hassle. Anyone have any gen on the best set to get?
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Post by JonW on Apr 4, 2013 0:40:03 GMT 1
Finally got the new pads after a protracted ebay and paypal dispute with a seller who plainly advertised '2 sets' in his title and description and then only sent 1 set and refused to fix the problem, maintaining he had done nothing wrong, even emailing to tell me 'you no steal my money' (sic) when i took him to 'paypal court'. nice. Paypal wanted me to file a police report in order for them to agree the claim, saying they couldn't make decisions like that. Er, so what is the 'buyer protection' for then? After numerous emails where I suggested the Aussie police would think I was wasting police time (and I would have been) filing a $40 'fraud claim' against a party in the usa, Paypal agreed to file in my favour, probably just to get rid of me, even tho I had proof the ad was misleading and the seller knew he had sent only one item when he plainly said 2. You must never give up with paypal it seems, they are supposed to work with ebay (same company really) and stamp out bad practice, but sadly form my experience they just dont want the hassle. A real shame as I am sure when the boot is on the other foot they will take money off me without a second thought. So, I bought a second set of pads from another seller when the dust settled on the first debacle and put them in and the brakes are better, but i'm still not happy. The Tockico 6 pots are well known for being tough to bleed and feeling spongy even using decent bleeding kit. To be honest they feel fine in use, but I don't feel confident with them as the lever isn't as firm as i expect with this setup. Ive got a line on some better disks and will tilt and tap the calipers again and have another bleed, if that fails then I reckon I will have to go back to the original RGV 4pots... sigh. The theory is they will be more than enough for a small bike like my LC, and bleed up easily enough. I have also fitted new mirrors to this bike... some CNC black beauties. I did this as some people reckoned the KTM OEM bumble bee antennas that i had were too big (probably cos of the pics on here, not usually in real life when they saw the bike). The new ones look great and came from Motolana. I will post some pics soon. Interestingly, the same looking mirrors as motolana sell can be had off ebay for cheap. So I bought some. They say they are CNC and look the same but were much inferior quality. The paint is wrinkly in the finish and the you can see some silicone bubbling out under the glasses. The motolana version were perfect. I reckon these could be the same factory as the dimensions are the same, but the quality was poles apart. By the time you've fixed the cheapo ones you may as well have bought the better quality ones to start with. The packaging was better with motolana too with proper boxing in polystyrene and they came with all fixings and allen keys. The cheapo ones came in a box with some cheapo bubblewrap, no fixings and no tools. Pays yer money and takes yer choice, as ever...
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Post by Norbo on Apr 4, 2013 8:31:40 GMT 1
It does clearly say 2 sets not 2 pads . glad you got it sorted.
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Post by JonW on Apr 4, 2013 23:21:43 GMT 1
Thanks Norbo, yeah, bloody ebay can be full of bottom-feeders if you get unlucky these days. sigh.
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Post by JonW on Apr 5, 2013 3:47:56 GMT 1
Ok the Tokico 6-pot brake caliper rebuild pics, as promised a while back... On the bike the calipers look fine... when i bought them they appeared clean and usable... and sexy... but they won't bleed up well and when you look closer you can see the pistons don't all 'move as one' if you play with the lever sans pads. Check out the link further up this thread for full rebuild info, but the gist is here. What I did was slowly push out the pistons with the lever... some didn't want to move at all and some were free as anything (which they all should be), all proving that the caliper sure needed rebuilding. I used clamps to hold the free-est of pistons to get the others to move and also helped by cleaning and lubing them with silicone and other sprays and a toothbrush. You don't want to pull pistons with pliers as you will mark them. Yes you can get special pliers and you can use a rag between the jaws of normal pliers, but it is better this way; hydraulic pressure is way stronger than anything else. Ive had to shift really knackered pistons on another caliper and nothing would shift it until i added heat and hydraulic pressure... air can be scary, dont do that... Almost there... gentle work allowed them to soon be ready for the caliper to be split. I undid the caliper bolts on the bike, you will mark the caliper if you do it in a vice. Once opened you can see how nasty they were. This brake system was filled with blue fluid, and not a trace of it is in here... just old fluid gone yellow and turning solid in places. This is the stuff that also compresses as its taken on water, and in doing so kills the lever. I used a rebuild kit from a uk seller off ebay, it was very good. Ok, the seals are not conical like OEM but they worked fine and you dont end up with them the wrong way round lol. You need a bunch do picks and scrapers, an airline and some more WD40 etc to remove all the alloy corrosion from under the seals as this is what sticks the pistons in the caliper - The corrosion pushes up (lifting) the seal trapping the piston. Simple then to do a nice clean up job, then flush with brake cleaner and when dry refit with new seals and plenty of red grease to stop the oxidisation for as long as possible. Clean with WD40 and then polish up the pistons with a metal polish, then rinse with brake cleaner and slide them back home. Fit new caliper seals to the joints of the halves and bolt back together. The kit has new bleed nipples as well, perfect. After this was done on both sides the calipers bled up better and the brakes were much improved, obvious really and not that hard top do if I am honest, just time consuming with 12 pistons to polish and 28 seals to fit!
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Post by Norbo on Apr 5, 2013 11:21:08 GMT 1
I have them same calipers on my 31K Steve baker special . mega stopping power.
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Post by JonW on Apr 5, 2013 12:00:59 GMT 1
I have a better set of disks now for this bike, I will fit them and maybe a set of custom braided hoses, then if they still dont bleed up firm im giving up on these and going back to 4pots.
My RGV rear brake caliper is also leaking again... new OEM seals and OEM pistons... what is it with this bike and brakes i wonder?! All my other bikes with rebuilt and old calipers are fine... sigh.
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Post by nikfubar on Apr 5, 2013 17:00:45 GMT 1
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Post by bryan on Apr 5, 2013 19:03:31 GMT 1
thats some OTT calipers for an RD.
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Post by JonW on Apr 5, 2013 22:16:52 GMT 1
Thats a brilliant idea, I have one of those wheels in a kit of dremel tools i bought as well. Good call m8! Hmm, you could have something with the crack. I cant see anything obvious and changing the seals got it better, and the brake is solid and firm as anything, it just drips a drop of fluid every now n then. I may just change it for another one I have.
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Post by JonW on Apr 5, 2013 22:17:16 GMT 1
thats some OTT calipers for an RD. Sure is!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2013 11:24:56 GMT 1
Jon, you've put in some hard yards on this project, mate... It's sure makes some interesting reading! Good work, and a great write up.
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Post by 2cl on Apr 6, 2013 16:48:01 GMT 1
Thats an interesting point Billy, you could well be right. the problem I have is that with my GSXR1000 radial master the lever will come back to the bars in position 1 on the master, and on 6 it is still very close. Ive bled this system so many times that I am starting to agree that maybe this is indeed my issue... Mr Jon What banjo bolt are you using at the master cylinder, I have just fitted the same radial one as yours, i started using a Hel one which looks a better profile and when bleeding i found it was just as you say with lever travel and didnt have much piston movment even after many times of bleeding and swearing. I took the Hel banjo back off and compared it with the original one that came with the radial and was suprised at the differance. The original one is longer and has bigger fluid bore holes so put that one on and had the brakes bled in 30mins, job done. Just a thought, as my problem was the same as yours, but my lc/rgv has rgv 4 pots,
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