downsy
L plate rider.
Posts: 31
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Post by downsy on Apr 1, 2024 19:30:26 GMT 1
Hi guys , I know this subject has been raised in several other posts of most I ve read. I m aware there are several different point of views in relation to Engine Numbers but my Mongrel is throwing up my own dilemma .
Just a bit of background , bought my bike 20 years ago locally via an add in local paper ( £475 ) . Visually my bike looks like a 350 LC but with a power valve engine. V5 came with bike . Now a frame number, engine number and and reg plate were all on the V5 but hand on heart I would ve never had checked that they matched . Go back another 20 years when I was buying my first Lc ( DT 125LC , RD350LC and then RD350YPVS And for my sins GPZ600R) Frame and engine numbers were not things I would cross reference when buying .
Over the years of tinkering with my mongrel I ve come to notice that the frame is a 4L1 , now after stripping down bike and removing 20 layers of paint the revealed frame number indeed matches the V5 . Great news.
Now this where it gets a bit messy . The Engine number is Also 4L1 however is a different number to the frame , the CC logged on the V5 is 350cc . From this , is it fair to say a previous owner may have changed the engine to another 250 engine but with a 350 top end ?? Which is why the V5 has 350 cc registered ?. At somepoint after this , the engine has again been changed this time to a 31K with no amendment made to the V5 . The engine has the obligatory chain damage in the area of the engine number so it’s provenance is unknown .
So to some it up . I have V5 and frame that match to 4L1.
I have a V5 that denotes the correct CC of the existing engine 350cc .
I have a V5 that shows a 4L1 engine number different to the frame number and obviously different to the current 31K engine .
Now I suppose down to my question , I have no interest in selling my bike just a desire to get it running and for it to be used but obviously the engine number on the V5 is idealy something I d like to sort out . What are my options for trying to get something logged on the V5 the current status of the engine ? Is there any reregistering of engines ?
Cheers Paul
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Post by andy748 on Apr 1, 2024 19:52:56 GMT 1
If it was me, i'd source a set of second hand cases with numbers intact, rebuild the engine into the new cases, get it up and running then apply for change of engine number on the log book. Last one i did, the DVLA just changed it with no engineers report or inspection. You don't wanna get pulled with half your engine numbers missing. Andy.
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Post by bezzer on Apr 1, 2024 19:53:31 GMT 1
Paul, The main thing for me would be the frame number matching the V5C, rather than the other way round.
I had the same issue many years ago with a 4L1 frame, with a 350 4L0 engine fitted, but the logbook stated the engine was the original matching 4L1 250.
From memory I sent the logbook off with the amended 350 numbers and changed the capacity to 347 and it came back updated. I’m not sure whether the DVLA would make things so easy now, but happy to be proved wrong.
I also agree that back in the day when we weren’t so aware that checking numbers against v5’s wasn’t high on our priority list, rightly or wrongly.
Hope you get it sorted buddy. Iain.
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downsy
L plate rider.
Posts: 31
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Post by downsy on Apr 1, 2024 22:18:11 GMT 1
Cheers for the replies Andy and Iain , very much appreciated.
Have checked out some casings on eBay and most looking a bit pricey 🙈 . Never having to do this before if I was to buy a numbered case what proof would there be of the status of the newly purchased engine cover that would satisfy DVLA ? The ones on eBay don’t appear to be being sold with the V5 although to be fair most of the ones on offer are not from uk .
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Post by Jona on Apr 1, 2024 22:40:17 GMT 1
Cheers for the replies Andy and Iain , very much appreciated. Have checked out some casings on eBay and most looking a bit pricey 🙈 . Never having to do this before if I was to buy a numbered case what proof would there be of the status of the newly purchased engine cover that would satisfy DVLA ? The ones on eBay don’t appear to be being sold with the V5 although to be fair most of the ones on offer are not from uk . In my opinion, as you said above, any cases you bought now are unlikely to have any provenance and again, in my opinion, have less than your current engine which you know was in the bike when you bought it many years ago. I would actually do nothing at all unless it bugs you that much. In which case I would make an application to have the engine number changed so the log book matches your engine. The chances of any policeman ever looking at an engine number on a bike has to be absolutely minimal these days and in the event, you have actually done nothing wrong at all as your story says. What is the worst that could happen ? As Iain said, the frame number matching the V5 is far more important |
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downsy
L plate rider.
Posts: 31
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Post by downsy on Apr 1, 2024 23:14:39 GMT 1
TBH it really doesn’t and has never been something I ve given much thought too when buying vehicles, ( in that I mean , when I look back at all vehicles I ve bought ,cars or bikes hunting down frame and engine numbers and cross referencing them has nt really happened ).
I m most probably more aware of it now after the last 10 years when Matching numbers etc are more desirable .
Being a realist my bike is a fair old mix of people’s preferences and could possibly even be referred to as ‘ triggers Broom ‘ but I m happy with that 👍. I just love the look of the Elsie’s and also the smell of em what ever guise they come in 👍
I m looking at sending my engine to SPA motorcycles in Cheltenham ( I’ve seen them recommended on here) for a complete service and some TLC) and am aware that it won’t come cheap so just investigating what my options maybe to tidy up my V5 👍.
Cheers Paul
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Post by Jona on Apr 1, 2024 23:27:36 GMT 1
TBH it really doesn’t and has never been something I ve given much thought too when buying vehicles, ( in that I mean , when I look back at all vehicles I ve bought ,cars or bikes hunting down frame and engine numbers and cross referencing them has nt really happened ). I m most probably more aware of it now after the last 10 years when Matching numbers etc are more desirable . Being a realist my bike is a fair old mix of people’s preferences and could possibly even be referred to as ‘ triggers Broom ‘ but I m happy with that 👍. I just love the look of the Elsie’s and also the smell of em what ever guise they come in 👍 I m looking at sending my engine to SPA motorcycles in Cheltenham ( I’ve seen them recommended on here) for a complete service and some TLC) and am aware that it won’t come cheap so just investigating what my options maybe to tidy up my V5 👍. Cheers Paul So forget about it and keep enjoying your bike 😀 |
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Post by JonW on Apr 2, 2024 0:21:43 GMT 1
Hmm... I think I would get a better set of engine cases if going to the expense of a pro rebuild.
Remember you cant just buy the 'top cover', has to be a set.
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Post by urbantangleweed on Apr 2, 2024 7:49:25 GMT 1
It used to be easy, you just filled in the new engine number on the V5, posted it off to DVLA and a new V5 arrived with the changes made. It all changed a couple of years ago and they no longer take it on trust that the information you put is correct or legit. See point 2 on the DVLA webpage here: www.gov.uk/change-vehicle-details-registration-certificate/printIf you have a friendly MOT place (must be VAT registered) they might provide you with a letter confirming the details which should do the trick. Bear in mind though you might open a hornets nest and it could be better to just to leave it as it is? |
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Post by reedpete on Apr 2, 2024 7:57:44 GMT 1
I would go the simple route and just get the paperwork updated to match the physical situation…
The semantics of any covering letter are important…. You are not advising a ‘change of engine’ … merely updating the paperwork.
That covers some busy body saying show me the old engine etc.
Letter from the mot place is required to confirm a) the engine number is as advised b) the engine is correct type for the chassis … which include superseded replacements such as the typical YPVS in a 4Lx chassis.
edit.. just realised you have no engine number on the current cases?
That being the case, of all the possible permutations… the only one that doesn’t make sense is spending serious money to have a rebuild using your existing cases if there is no engine number… if it’s just chain damage then getting that repaired is also an option…
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downsy
L plate rider.
Posts: 31
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Post by downsy on Apr 2, 2024 10:54:35 GMT 1
All very valid opinions and thanks guys for replies. I really want to enjoy my bike hence why potentially having a rebuild done by ‘Pros’ who are relatively local. Would have happily used some of the chaps recommended on this site( mutts nutts in particular has some great reviews ) but distance is a factor .
Still not sure best way to approach this , I can’t quite get my head around spending £600 on some engine casings that have a number on them with no provenance of where that number originated from or how legit that number is ( or am I missing something here ?)
Will most prob hold off on the engine rebuild until I can come to a solution. Having never had an engine rebuild done before not sure what the protocol would be . Would a garage be keen on working on an engine with no number or would it be quite a common occurrence especially when dealing with 80 s bikes !!
I know all of my bikes mentioned in my previous thread were all relieved from me at some point by some unscrupulous characters ! Only one ever retrieved and that was my least favourite, the 4Stroke.
Cheers Paul
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downsy
L plate rider.
Posts: 31
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Post by downsy on Apr 2, 2024 10:58:42 GMT 1
 On a brighter note ,postie delivered this today so at least whatever I decide with my engine it ll now have a working mechanical tacho 👍 happy days |
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Post by urbantangleweed on Apr 2, 2024 11:03:51 GMT 1
Still not sure best way to approach this , I can’t quite get my head around spending £600 on some engine casings that have a number on them with no provenance of where that number originated from or how legit that number is ( or am I missing something here ?) Will most prob hold off on the engine rebuild until I can come to a solution. Look for Badfoot Customs on Facebook, he can almost certainly repair your top case. It won't be cheap, but probably worth exploring? |
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Post by reedpete on Apr 2, 2024 11:30:21 GMT 1
All very valid opinions and thanks guys for replies. I really want to enjoy my bike hence why potentially having a rebuild done by ‘Pros’ who are relatively local. Would have happily used some of the chaps recommended on this site( mutts nutts in particular has some great reviews ) but distance is a factor . Still not sure best way to approach this , I can’t quite get my head around spending £600 on some engine casings that have a number on them with no provenance of where that number originated from or how legit that number is ( or am I missing something here ?) Will most prob hold off on the engine rebuild until I can come to a solution. Having never had an engine rebuild done before not sure what the protocol would be . Would a garage be keen on working on an engine with no number or would it be quite a common occurrence especially when dealing with 80 s bikes !! I know all of my bikes mentioned in my previous thread were all relieved from me at some point by some unscrupulous characters ! Only one ever retrieved and that was my least favourite, the 4Stroke. Cheers Paul Think you are ‘missing something’ to use your words… but that’s not a problem as you have done the right thing to get some feedback from here… so few points to consider. 1. set of nice 31K cases with clean untampered numbers should not be £600….. more like half that or less … 2. You do need to know what untampered engine numbers look like, but beyond that, buying a set of cases with a receipt is all that’s required… there’s no documentation that travels with an engine… and in some cases, such as the cases from jap market or even on modern bikes… there are no actual serial numbers … just the case ID… 3. there are well known traders or individuals on here who could probably find you what you need without resorting to eBay. 4. Chain damage cases can be repaired … but generally that’s when the number is still present..probably not practical if the number is damaged….is the majority of your number missing? 5. Knowing your location will help a few options being suggested for engine builders .. |
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downsy
L plate rider.
Posts: 31
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Post by downsy on Apr 2, 2024 13:11:34 GMT 1
 This most probably the best looking one I ve seen with a 31k stamp and pretty clear . If they re are genuine I would have no idea 🙈! I m not looking at getting these just showing what at a quick glance I have come across . Most of the area has snapped off and what’s left of the area certainly looks like numbers have been removed , there are small areas with the thin serrations but not much 👎 . I m based in South Wales , near Cardiff ( Great for Brecon ride outs ) |
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Post by abar121 on Apr 2, 2024 13:12:06 GMT 1
I wouldn't bother doing anything about it if I was keeping the bike for myself.
The engine case damage is easily explained and as you say very common. It's obviously a hybrid anyway.
The UK is one of the very few countries that even bother to record the engine number on the reg document.
FWIW, I recently sold a mint set of cases (with some usable components still in it), for £350.
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Post by JonW on Apr 2, 2024 13:25:34 GMT 1
There are a good few examples of how genuine engine numbers look on rd350lc.net if you want to check those out.
Also... why not build the engine yourself?
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downsy
L plate rider.
Posts: 31
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Post by downsy on Apr 2, 2024 13:54:25 GMT 1
There are a good few examples of how genuine engine numbers look on rd350lc.net if you want to check those out. Also... why not build the engine yourself? I ve checked out that site , when I first joined this forum which really made me more aware of the differing frame/ engine references ( possibly 10 years too late for my purchase 🙈) Hey I d love to have a crack at the engine but I really want to get it checked out with those that no. Sounds a bit lazy I know but have told so many of mates and family that’s the Elsie is gonna be back on the road ( hopefully anyway) that to have it seize on its maiden journey won’t bare thinking about lol !! Although totally aware this could happen even if the experts have given it some TLC and a clean bill of health . I ll be doing everything else but the witchcraft of the engine is for others !I m afraid ! . Although if I do decide to go down the new casing route I might have to step into the dark side and pull out the Old Haynes manual 🙈🙈👍 |
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Post by midlifecrisisrd on Apr 2, 2024 16:44:58 GMT 1
Kosaprossa had a set of 1wt cases on at £200
The 600 quid set is ridiculous
Personally I'd have to change them. For one it would bug me not having a complete number as well as the chain damage
Only takes 1 cnut from either plod or DVLA to ruin your day and tell you it's an offence not to update the v5 details
I've a couple of frames that I haven't got the engine that matches the docs. Over the last couple of years I've bought a few sets of cases from Ebay and kept the receipts (few copies lol) for when I've built them
As far as I know if you send a covering letter stating the cases were damaged so you have bought and fitted new ones and attach the receipt they will change the number over
Also note that 29L ypvs cases are identical but as they were from Japan they only have 29L stamped on them, no other number
They tend to be cheaper but at the end of the day any 31k, 31W, IWT, 1WW etc cases will do
Just not the 4ce or Banshee ones as no mechanical tacho drive
Steve
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Post by midlifecrisisrd on Apr 2, 2024 16:49:07 GMT 1
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downsy
L plate rider.
Posts: 31
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Post by downsy on Apr 2, 2024 19:01:19 GMT 1
Thanks steve for advice and contacts 👍much appreciated.
Not overly bothered wether I was to get a 31k or any of the others really ( obvs apart from non tacho drive ones ) but would rather have the V5 reflect what’s appears on the bike . The chain damage personally I could live with but obviously getting some new casings would also sort that out .
In trouble now because my Mrs thinks I m up to something dodgy as I ve never been on my phone so much 🙈🙈🙈😂.
This forum is great TBF 👌
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Post by midlifecrisisrd on Apr 2, 2024 20:37:01 GMT 1
The problem is that when she sees the bank balance after you've rebuilt it she'll be wishing you were having an affair 🤣
Steve
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Post by bezzer on Apr 2, 2024 21:36:00 GMT 1
My mate is restoring his golf GTi, and is constantly on his phone ordering stuff. He says when his Missus asks him what he’s doing, rather than face the consequences it’s easier to say ‘watching porn’ 🤣
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downsy
L plate rider.
Posts: 31
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Post by downsy on Apr 2, 2024 22:25:34 GMT 1
My mate is restoring his golf GTi, and is constantly on his phone ordering stuff. He says when his Missus asks him what he’s doing, rather than face the consequences it’s easier to say ‘watching porn’ 🤣 Top tip thanks mate , will defo use it required 👍 |
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Post by JonW on Apr 5, 2024 13:49:56 GMT 1
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