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Post by 4l04ever on Jan 7, 2024 10:03:43 GMT 1
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Post by beardy on Jan 7, 2024 11:43:03 GMT 1
I remember watching a Panorama type program many years ago about the Horizon IT issue. It was a major scandal back then. It’s disgusting that it’s still slowly trundling along without a resolution in sight. Sort of reminds me how the any government will delay paying out to victims in the hope they die first. Whether that be civil or war. Maybe a bit cynical of me 🤷♂️
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Post by midlifecrisisrd on Jan 7, 2024 11:47:29 GMT 1
Saw a program about it years ago
As you say others had access to the system and if they keyed something wrong there was no record of who or when it was changed but was treated as gospel
Time the PO pays for this, they took peoples homes and savings from them and despite the convictions being quashed have not given the money back
How they convicted people with a system that had so little ability to audit or prove things happen is beyond me
Obvious they lied about the system in court
Steve
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Post by veg on Jan 7, 2024 11:51:33 GMT 1
It’s been a major story in Private Eye magazine for many years. The post office and the government were both aware from internal audits and chose to do nothing and chose to allow people’s lives to be ruined knowing full well the reasons behind the ‘anomaly’s’ It was and is a disgrace. It’s a shame it took a tv production to highlight it, however at least more people are aware. The fallout should include all that knew and covered it up, govt ministers, Senior leadership team, etc This caused undue stress, hardship and even death and they knew and not only did nothing, they continued pushing it.
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Post by midlifecrisisrd on Jan 7, 2024 11:52:14 GMT 1
Yes, that was it
I agree with you, almost like the contaminated blood scandal, been going on for years
Tories gave sat on it for years but when they eventually get kicked out they will use this kind of crap against the new gov
Was reading yesterday that some Tory was saying the Labour Party would not cut taxes
How the feck can they with the mess we are in
Laughed at the claim that the Nat ins cut was the biggest tax cut ever
Eh, you put it all up
Steve
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Post by arrow on Jan 7, 2024 12:21:01 GMT 1
The guy that stood in front of a bus and died, he was from my local post office. He looked like a broken man leading up to this, and nobody knew why.
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Post by midlifecrisisrd on Jan 7, 2024 12:28:23 GMT 1
Must have been terrible for these people
Steve
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Post by liffy16 on Jan 7, 2024 12:32:43 GMT 1
Been a sad and terrible cover up,but like the man said 'were just skint little people 'so much for living in a democracy!it's been them and us since 1066 if not before ?
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Post by sbscnor on Jan 7, 2024 13:00:04 GMT 1
Like you Rob I work in IT for the MoD and how this system got approved or accredited mystifies me considering the amount of hoops I have to jump through when putting a system in place. As said what's more annoying is the time its taken to get this far and I hope someone in the PO or Gov gets charged and prosecuted.
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Post by muttsnuts on Jan 7, 2024 13:18:28 GMT 1
as some of you know I worked in the IT industry from 1987 through to 2007 and then part time until 2012, anyway, Fujitsu was one of the companies that tried to get me to come in and solve some of their issues in Bracknell, I turned them down because they didn't have the due diligence in place at the time and it was well known within the industry that was the case.
Given the work I did, I know full well access is ALWAYS possible from a systems point of view, there is no such thing as unable to access the data, I spent years working on ways to audit and record any data changes, if it was so desired using a high level account at the back end, access was always possible and data could be changed with that access and it would bypass any auditing checks in place as it was being done at "data" level.
The logging in as somebody else was common place, and without their knowledge, I wrote a program that would reverse the passowrd encryption used on a system so that I could login as "Mr Smith" if required, sometimes it was the only way to figure out a problem they where having, but that type of usage was strictly controlled and logged in the systems I built and looked after, you had to jump through loads of hoops for me to grant that access and it had to be signed off at the highest management level
There are far more checks and balances in place these days and even high level access should be tracked and logged, back then it was very rarely ever done by companies, it use to drive me nuts, I had so many arguments with people/management about it, use to boil my piss
I watched the program and it reminded me of all the reasons I left and went back to my engineering roots, the people changing the data (and they know who they are), should do the right thing and come forward, they will have altered thousands and thousands of records and data, which I am sure probably "over inflated" the post offices profits etc
The one thing I am puzzled by, is why the people who where made to pay money to the post office etc haven't raised this with the authorities/police as "theft" as that is exactly what it is, now that it has been proven they where innocent, then any monies taken was done fraudalently
I hope those responsbile get what is due to them, but as I suspect they won't as usual, the whole thing stinks........
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Post by JonW on Jan 7, 2024 13:27:19 GMT 1
Ive struggled to watch this as it makes me so angry. Hence me commenting on this with a side quip the other day about the Horizon helpline... no one noticed, but I was so incensed it just came out... sigh... As some of you know I worked for the IT side of other parts of this huge business for many years, but never on the Retail ('Counters') side ('PO' and later 'POL' as shown in this show) as they had ICL/Fujitsu doing their work. I started there when they were looking for proven players to make the struggling non-govt organisation ('private' but with one shareholder, the uk govt - and yes that does make a difference) a success. When I joined (mid-late 90s) they were losing £1+m/day. We were tasked to help stop that as first priority. I guess POL was doing the same thing as us, just incredibly badly it now seems, with help from their own partners. I guess I was lucky to avoid that part of the biz the whole time I worked there, but I couldnt have held my tongue if id seen changes to live data like that. I have many 'war stories' from many different organisations I worked with but luckily nothing like that. Although I did know of a Concorde that went LHR to JFK empty cos of the same issue... That cost BA considerable money, but no one else was harmed other than the idiot who booked it out. That happened years before Horizon ever existed. Experienced IT people knew not to do stuff like that long before the 2000s. Anyway, I should add that dealing with the old guard in the PO and their young mentees (heralded for years as 'the future of the biz' and fast tracked) was tough as they had little idea how to run a real business. Those of us brought in really struggled, it was an up hill battle. I should add that the front line staff (in Mail Centers, Delivery Offices, plus the Postmen, Office bods, Parcel guys etc etc) were generally amazing but frightened to talk to anyone in a suit. We did eventually win them round by earning their trust slowly. I enjoyed working with these people very much. I know the TV shows are written to tell a story a certain way, but I cant quite believe how; a, POL did this to their own staff and b, let it go on so long when they knew it was wrong. I truly believe its criminal how this ended up, but maybe some of what Ive written gives you an idea of the landscape of the business back in the mid 90s when this all started with the idea of a system to combine better accounting in retail counter outlets with better giro handling for the DHSS. You can read all about what happened with the system at the bottom of this link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Post_Office_scandalAll up this has made me angry for over a decade now as Ive followed this for years... and I dont see any change to that soon. How do you compensate the people who suffered under this stupidity? Whats a quashed conviction worth? whats the lost years worth? a divorce? the loss of a family member? the standing of a person in the community? how to do you account for what might have been? And so many more unquantifiable things that need to be compensated. I also dont know how you prove criminal intent for managers in a business unless you have decisions in black and white to take to court. I cant see any prosecution of anyone for this sadly. I truly hope the wronged Subpostmasters get satisfaction soon, but sadly I doubt the business has the funds. What a mess.
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Post by JonW on Jan 7, 2024 13:31:36 GMT 1
I watched the program and it reminded me of all the reasons I left... Yep, I felt the same. Leaving IT was the best thing for my sanity.
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Post by muttsnuts on Jan 7, 2024 13:50:30 GMT 1
like Jon, I was staggered during my time in IT how business where run
I was working in Japan for one of the biggest companies in the world back then (1997 to 2000), they had just bought out a big Japanese company, I was responsbile for taking over the data centres and migrating their systems into our systems
Their systems where only accurate to 4 decimal places, our system was accurate to 32 decimal places, when we migrated their data into one of our test systems the books didn't balance, they where out to the tune of $120 million dollars, and more importantly a deficeit at that to the Japanese government !
We flew over an army of accountants who worked for 3 months solid "massaging" the data and fixing reconiliation issues until the deficeit sat at $56 million dollars, after a big senior management meeting it was agreed to the "write" the $56 million dollars off as a loss, the country director then just authorised a payment to the Japanese government for that amount - truly staggering, and yet nobody ever questioned where that money had gone - truth was, it hadn't gone anywhere, it was simply a computing/coding issue coupled with accuracy within the two systems
These problems still exist today in many systems, and don't get me going on banking systems.........it would make your toes curl what they get upto !
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Post by beardy on Jan 7, 2024 14:22:16 GMT 1
These problems still exist today in many systems, and don't get me going on banking systems.........it would make your toes curl what they get upto ! Please don’t tell me 🙉 😂
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Post by cb250g5 on Jan 7, 2024 14:39:26 GMT 1
I had a contract at a small Swedish owned IT / Telecoms company that got bought up by Fujitsu Services.
I left.
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Post by JonW on Jan 7, 2024 14:39:52 GMT 1
Ahh Dave, you and I could be the 2 most boring men to be around in a pub after a few beers... I feel your pain as my own. Over the years Ive scratched my head at frantic management who couldnt see the demise of their biz at places like MG Rover and pondered 'lost' nuclear waste... and so many other things I cant talk about. Seen more idiots and w#*#ers ruin a business than I care to remember and yet some of it was actually fun. IT systems are great timesavers, but lets be real. Garbage In, Garbage Out has always been the thing. Computers havent yet been able to think beyond their programming, yeah yeah AI this and that is in the news... but show me something that isnt derivative as computers create what their designer tells them, it can make new things like old things... Not 'all brand new' things. And when it does, its not cos of AI. well, not 'yet'... perhaps... we'll see. Re the PO: I should add that there were some great things about the PO in my time there. Not least some amazing and very talented people, not just in IT but especially in the business as well. Without the true gems for whom getting the mail through was their life's work that biz would have failed years ago. As you see in the TV show, there are people whos whole working life has been in the business. Losing those people is a travesty. It also had things back then like Mail Rail (Amazing when it ran and still supercool to visit as an attraction), Mail Trains (as was robbed and now is gone) and other cool stuff... ....but also people dont realise the numbers involved, that was one of the things that attracted me to the PO. Its HUGE! One thing they only touch on briefly in the TV show is the number of POs. Depending on the year (they closed loads as you will have read in the news the past decades) there was 10-14,000... Now think about that... McDonalds has a lot of outlets; it has (12/12/23 figs) 1428. circa 10% of POs. Tesco has <5k... less than half. This means that the PO is the largest retailer in the UK for number of locations. Also... Its one of the largest employers. @160,000 employees if you add em all together from the various parts. For perspective, the uk army is around 80,000. (Ahh you think Ive pulled an IT trick here of course, you could add in the army and navy... since Ive included the whole of the UK PO... but that is 30k+30k, still smaller!) Ok, the NHS is larger (by a long way) and you could use different forces figs to bump those up. Anyway, there are lots of people employed is what im saying. And then there is the work; The numbers of mail pieces and parcels in progress would scare you too if you wondered how you would collect, process and deliver it all. -- Ok, all this is great but doesnt stop me still being angry about Horizon and how this was handled... Its the injustice and the wasted opportunity. It upsets me to my core.
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Post by steve63 on Jan 7, 2024 17:31:09 GMT 1
As I type this the petition to strip Paula Vennells of her CBE stands at 918,000 signatures.
It's fine for her to lose her medal and I signed it but as one guy said after his acquittal "hit them in their pockets." I can only imagine what their pensions are worth.
Did anyone else notice the scene in the TV series where all of the five people representing the Post Office sat on the left hand side of the table were Women? One of the Sub-Postmasters or one of their associates said "don't any men work for them?"
The Met have launched a criminal investigation. I thought it was new news but it was started in 2020. It's sad that it needs it but after all this publicity it will probably gather a lot more momentum now. These things shouldn't depend on how much air time something gets but that's the reality we now live in.
A lot of the people pleaded guilty to a lesser charge after being told they would avoid jail time if they did. I've thought about this and I don't think I could.
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Post by steve h on Jan 8, 2024 0:35:49 GMT 1
There are many more in westmienster who need their awards and Knighthoods removing who have shat on the people. One is partly responsible for the death of many thousands....
And as for tech... The agency my Mrs works for introduced a new system that was shite, they spent millions of your pounds on it, it is a retrograde step but is hailed like the emperors new cloths. Too much attention to softwear. not enough to HUMAN BEINGS.
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Post by JonW on Jan 8, 2024 0:44:38 GMT 1
Too much attention to softwear. not enough to HUMAN BEINGS. Thats the bit I always hoped the IT industry would realise. I was always saddened by how many IT people I met would not want to talk to the end user. Sure the convos werent always pretty, but listening to those who actually use the system, even if not the people who want or are paying for it, is key to its success. Its not the 60's anymore... That said, dont get me started on Apps... The majority are poorly written, never tested adequately and always done to the lowest threshold of the 'Good Enough' model. So many errors that would be simple to fix in such small systems and yet the GenZ designers and users just shrug and use em as 'fast development' is the new 'quality'. Im sure this wrankles with others who are IT professionals, but our world is full of this stuff now and its just accepted.
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Post by geoffers997 on Jan 8, 2024 20:28:01 GMT 1
40 years in the IT business and just like everyone else I’ve seen and done things that’d make Joe Public’s head spin.
What I’d say is this;
1. It’s an election year so our great leaders are falling over themselves to virtue signal to anyone who will listen
2. Without doubt those who’ve suffered should be made whole, noting that money won’t solve everything
3. Finally, and the thing that really grips my sh1t: Not one person who presided over this whole debacle has lost a penny or faced prosecution.
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Post by sbscnor on Jan 8, 2024 21:19:06 GMT 1
I’ve seen and done things that’d make Joe Public’s head spin. We are getting young ones that don't know what a command prompt is they are supposed to be fully trained and they are going out fixing problems supposedly.
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Post by veg on Jan 8, 2024 21:56:18 GMT 1
It’s always the too big to fail that get away with it. Years ago I dealt with the fallout on the periphery of the phoenix group (rover cars) and the lead ‘business man’ involved in it, and how he and the others got away with it was absolutely disgraceful. Then look at the ‘punishment’ I use the word advisedly of Stuart garner of Norton infamy. 18 month suspended sentence. Compare that to the general prison population it’s astounding. The higher you are the less likely you are to fall. Michelle Mone and her old man, even BJ. One rule for the ruling elites and one for the plebiscite. I’m sounding like a conspiracy theorist but it winds me up. If you or I did this we would screwed.
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Post by steve h on Jan 8, 2024 22:17:46 GMT 1
It’s always the too big to fail that get away with it. Years ago I dealt with the fallout on the periphery of the phoenix group (rover cars) and the lead ‘business man’ involved in it, and how he and the others got away with it was absolutely disgraceful. Then look at the ‘punishment’ I use the word advisedly of Stuart garner of Norton infamy. 18 month suspended sentence. Compare that to the general prison population it’s astounding. The higher you are the less likely you are to fall. Michelle Mone and her old man, even BJ. One rule for the ruling elites and one for the plebiscite. I’m sounding like a conspiracy theorist but it winds me up. If you or I did this we would screwed. "Conspiracy theorist" One who can see what the b*****ds are up to and calls them out. In times of deceit, telling the truth is considered a revolutionary act... One of the above should be made to hand back all monies taken wrongly from us and then jailed.... ((Not Garner) Used the PO today and was served by a nice lady.... they can stick "online applications" It's nice to deal with a real person!
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Post by geoffers997 on Jan 9, 2024 14:30:49 GMT 1
I see the former CEO is handing back her CBE. I wonder if she’ll hand back her pension and bonuses too…..
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Post by shaunthe2nd on Jan 9, 2024 14:56:04 GMT 1
I think my signature helped!
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Post by JonW on Jan 9, 2024 23:22:07 GMT 1
In the right direction but 'Handing back' is sadly a, just the start of that process, ultimately the king needs to agree to accept it, and, b, a mere gesture.
Will be interesting to see if there is ever a court case for any of the Fujitsu and PO staff over this.
The burden of proof to secure a conviction would need to be very high and I just dont see how they could find it in black/white etc. It did exist Im sure back in the day, but expect its long been deleted.
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Post by steve h on Jan 10, 2024 14:35:53 GMT 1
"Sunnack announces new law to swiftly exonerate post office victims"
Call me cynical, but anyone would think there is an election coming....
(Hope he's got his green card handy as he's being made redundant)
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simonh
L plate rider.
Posts: 19
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Post by simonh on Jan 11, 2024 13:42:27 GMT 1
Watching the PO Inquiry on You Tube today, the PO investigator (Stephen Bradshaw) playing the "I was only following orders" card, comes across and an obnoxious, unintelligent bully!
Both the PO and Fujitsu should face charges nothing short of corporate manslaughter, and the victims and families deserve millions not just tens of thousands of pounds in compensation.
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Post by JonW on Jan 12, 2024 1:22:03 GMT 1
I thought the compensation was now (as if this week?) going to be 600k a person? I expect there is a caveat that its 'upto' (isnt there always?), but its significantly better than the 20Kish the first round payouts were (from what was left of the initial class action after the lawyers fees were taken out). That's at least money that can be life changing. Wonder if its taxable... hmm... I expect not; certainly hope not. I also watched some of Bradshaw's testimony, I didnt think he covered himself in glory... and yes he didnt really say very much as youve said. Lots of 'not my words', 'im not technical' etc. All very much as expected I guess, slope'y shouldered. But, actually listening to him talk you can well believe he said some of the things in interviews/calls that the subpostmasters accused him of. Someone said it was '1970's policing style' and it did remind you of Gene Hunt's 'Pass the phone books!'. But, I didnt see anything that made me think he would be going to court for this, the evidence seems lacking for a prosecution so far unless there is something we arent seeing? The interesting name in the frame was Gareth Jenkins, Chief Architect for Fujitsu for Horizon system*, who has asked for immunity from incrimination... twice. Which makes you wonder what he has to tell... All in all this has really taken root in the UK press the past 2 weeks and its interesting how its playing out. So many interesting wider drivers for it, like the election etc Calls for Knighthoods and calls for returned honours etc. Tv progs with chats with the wronged and a televised Inquiry. Even a news article where a journo went to Fenny Compton... er is this 'news'?** There is a lot happening at once after so long where the public were unaware. I do hope all this media circus wont mask the real story here. -- * - For those who dont work in IT. There are multiple Chief Architects for businesses like Fujitsu, they work on projects and/or for customers. They are the technical designers of the system and oversee its design, creation, delivery and ongoing maintenance. On large systems there can be other architects working on it as well for more specific design areas, like how things communicate/connect etc. They dont write the software or physically connect anything, most of their work is to sit in meetings, have ideas about making stuff work for the budget proposed and then design it - hopefully with lots of input from the customer's end users. ie their role is like the more understood term 'architect' who builds a house/building etc. They technically understand what can be done and how to do it, but not doing the physical work. ** - for those who want to read that : www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-67925802
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Post by midlifecrisisrd on Jan 12, 2024 9:50:32 GMT 1
I was gobsmacked last night to read that they still use Horizon, it's still sh1t and it still can't add up
Difference now is they work with the post master to "correct" the error which I imagine is like when you go through the supermarket checkout with a tin of beans, it goes beep and says its 4 quid. Lovely lady comes over, presses a few buttons and it's now 1 quid
Now if the PO has been doing this in all the years they've known it doesn't work properly then they have fraudulently kept money from people and perverting the course of justice
Imagine witnessing a murder, pointing the finger at someone and them getting jailed on your evidence. Then finding out it wasn't them and saying nothing
Do you think it would take 8 years and a tv program for them to jail you for that
Then read that the "expert IT witness" that Bates used worked for them and was fired in 2003 after telling them about the problems with it
Beggars belief
Steve
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