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Post by goggo234 on Jan 4, 2024 9:36:32 GMT 1
Hi guys,
What are you recommendations to improve the stock brake set up.
I don’t really want to upgrade the brakes - just improve the stock ones.
Wanting to keep as original as possible.
TIA
Cheers
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Post by JonW on Jan 4, 2024 10:17:32 GMT 1
sintered pads.
have a search tho, lots of brake info on here
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red998
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Post by red998 on Jan 4, 2024 10:57:32 GMT 1
You could change the discs for better quality items which are stronger and will avoid warping. I use an EBC disc on my 250LC and it's much better than a stock disc.
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Post by dougw on Jan 4, 2024 11:02:33 GMT 1
My set up
Serviced stock twin callipers.
Good Pads
Braided hoses and a 250 master cylinder (1/2" ?)
Happily does stoppies on BT46 front tyre.
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Post by liffy16 on Jan 4, 2024 13:14:11 GMT 1
Gold ceramic carbon pads work great on lcs sold by m+p on eBay think there the same as what norbo sells on here ?
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Post by veg on Jan 4, 2024 13:40:57 GMT 1
My set up Serviced stock twin callipers. Good Pads Braided hoses and a 250 master cylinder (1/2" ?) Happily does stoppies on BT46 front tyre. This, this is about as good as they will get with better discs. You have to remember that the changes you make are dependent on tyre size and contact patch. The std front end as above is about as good as you’ll get, much more is over kill. If you are able to lock the wheel. Also remember to upgrade/rebuild the forks as well. The weight transfer also effects the braking ability. |
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Post by peddrotzr on Jan 4, 2024 13:58:14 GMT 1
My LC250 stock M/cylinder, disc & calliper work fine Similar to dougw regular service/clean calliper, braided line, EBC pads and Motul fluid. This is more than adequate for me. Best regards Johnny C. |
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Post by reedvalve on Jan 4, 2024 22:33:14 GMT 1
I think the single most effective thing you can do and keep everything original as possible, is to fit a smaller 250 1/2" master cylinder, assuming that is, that your brakes are serviced, you have decent pads and new hoses (braided I think are better with the smaller master cylinder). The difference is night and day, not subtle like changing from one brand of brake pad to another, it's slap in your face obvious! I was prompted to do it on my YPVS after reading this thread, and wouldn't change back now, the best subtle tweak I ever made: rdlccrazy.proboards.com/thread/59935/front-brakeChris |
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Post by elsiefan on Jan 5, 2024 2:03:41 GMT 1
I think the single most effective thing you can do and keep everything original as possible, is to fit a smaller 250 1/2" master cylinder, assuming that is, that your brakes are serviced, you have decent pads and new hoses (braided I think are better with the smaller master cylinder). The difference is night and day, not subtle like changing from one brand of brake pad to another, it's slap in your face obvious! I was prompted to do it on my YPVS after reading this thread, and wouldn't change back now, the best subtle tweak I ever made: rdlccrazy.proboards.com/thread/59935/front-brakeChris Ditto to this. I fitted a 1/2" M/C to my serviced standard 350 set up, and went from a four finger, full death grip, only just slowing down; to just two fingers and if you want to stop quicker, just squeeze a little bit harder. It really is that much of a difference, no idea why Yamaha never fitted it that way from stock. |
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crogthomas
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Post by crogthomas on Jan 5, 2024 10:09:59 GMT 1
It really is that much of a difference, no idea why Yamaha never fitted it that way from stock. I suspect Yamahas aim was to ensure that all bikes in their range (probably also benchmarked against other brands) had a similar 'feel', to ensure that people jumping from one bike to another didn't crash. We've all got used to modern bikes with immensely powerful brakes now, so it's probably not as much of an issue. Also remember that with a smaller 1/2" master cylinder you have more lever travel. There could conceivably be a situation where with the span adjuster wound right out, that the lever hits the bars and you have no more braking available in an emergency. Obviously Yamaha would have tested this fully with the standard setup, and also accounted for things like air bubbles in the line from a brake bleed by a cack-handed 17 year old. Be cautious and test fully. |
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Post by KevtheRev on Jan 5, 2024 10:31:05 GMT 1
My set up Serviced stock twin callipers. Good Pads Braided hoses and a 250 master cylinder (1/2" ?) Happily does stoppies on BT46 front tyre. What tyre pressures are you running the '46s Doug ? |
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Post by goggo234 on Jan 7, 2024 5:48:15 GMT 1
Interesting about the 250 master cylinder. I would not have imagined that. I would have thought it would be weaker and the 350 one designed to action two calipers.
I was going to use braided line and the upgraded pads.
I’m glad I asked.
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Post by dougw on Jan 8, 2024 13:39:17 GMT 1
My set up Serviced stock twin callipers. Good Pads Braided hoses and a 250 master cylinder (1/2" ?) Happily does stoppies on BT46 front tyre. What tyre pressures are you running the '46s Doug ? 26 front 28 rear. Forks have YSS emulators and stock springs with 10mm removed, emulators are 15mm so that gives 5mm of preload over stock , and being pedantic increases the spring rate fractionally. Still a little soft but fine on road for me at around 14.5 stone in bike gear. |
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Post by chrisg on Jan 8, 2024 13:45:13 GMT 1
Interesting about the 250 master cylinder. I would not have imagined that. I would have thought it would be weaker and the 350 one designed to action two calipers. I was going to use braided line and the upgraded pads. I’m glad I asked. Basically the 250 will give more power but move slightly less fluid per stroke. |
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Post by steve63 on Jan 8, 2024 13:59:33 GMT 1
Interesting about the 250 master cylinder. I would not have imagined that. I would have thought it would be weaker and the 350 one designed to action two calipers. I was going to use braided line and the upgraded pads. I’m glad I asked. I had a KH500 that had been converted to twin disc but the master cylinder hadn't been changed. The lever could come right into the grip but if you tried that while you were riding you would either lock the front wheel or be over the bars. It was such a long bike I could easily squeak the front tyre at low speeds. Personally I would fully strip and clean the brakes and rebuild them to as near to out of the factory before I did anything else. I've said this a few times but my brand new LC350 had some of the best brakes I ever remember. With a nice sticky KR124 on the front I've had the back wheel well up in the air. Not deliberately, just trying to avoid crashing! |
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Post by KevtheRev on Jan 8, 2024 14:37:59 GMT 1
What tyre pressures are you running the '46s Doug ? 26 front 28 rear. Forks have YSS emulators and stock springs with 10mm removed, emulators are 15mm so that gives 5mm of preload over stock , and being pedantic increases the spring rate fractionally. Still a little soft but fine on road for me at around 14.5 stone in bike gear. Ok , always ran 28 psi front and 32 rear , with tubes . I've heard that if running tubeless you should up the pressure a couple of psi . I've new BT46's on mine at 32 and 36 psi , tubeless . It feels nice. Stock forks/springs , R1 calipers , Brembo Gold master , (must get those new brakelines ordered) . |
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Post by JonW on Jan 9, 2024 0:12:47 GMT 1
Hmm, dont run sans tubes on an LC. Might work for you but not correct...
(weve chatted about this before on here so not worth going over it again, other threads covered it etc, but LCs were specced with tubes and the wheels are not noted as 'tubeless')
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Post by steve63 on Jan 10, 2024 14:17:26 GMT 1
Hmm, dont run sans tubes on an LC. Might work for you but not correct... (weve chatted about this before on here so not worth going over it again, other threads covered it etc, but LCs were specced with tubes and the wheels are not noted as 'tubeless') It's one of those subjects that goes around and around for ever in an endless loop and will until the end of the World as we know it. It's similar to the "turn your central heating central thermostat heating down 1°. you won't notice the difference but your heating bill will reduce by £10,000 a year." About November each year it pops up around. My old man's been doing it since 1974 and his stat is set on -70° now. Another is "leave your heating on 24/7. You'll not be heating your house up from cold twice a day so you'll save money." Says my mate Pete the plumber who has done all the necessary heat loss/gains v cost per unit calculations and compared many different house sizes/layouts thermal efficiency figures before drawing his carefully checked and verified conclusion. A bit like you could poke yourself in the eye; I wouldn't recommend it, Why would you? you could hurt yourself, your eye is not designed to be poked but there's nothing to stop you. I heard say that many proddy racers would run LC's tubeless but until the advent of Facebook I had never heard that one. |
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Post by steve63 on Jan 11, 2024 14:05:12 GMT 1
I have a stock 4L0 front end complete with original callipers that have been stripped, cleaned 100%, new stainless pistons, all new seals, re-plated pins and re-furbished 350 (5/8"?) master cylinder. I also have a master cylinder off a Yamaha SR125 which I discovered last year is the same as the 250LC one at 1/2". I'll probably get some of those emulator things. I have the same but F2, original twin pot callipers and also Triumph four pots on stand by. I have a couple of RGV250 remote reservoir master cylinders and four pot callipers. I don't have a clue what master cylinder diameter those are. I don't fancy calliper adaptors though. I'll be choosing from that lot. If none of those keep me happy I'll give myself a slap  In fairness, what doesn't get used on one bike will be going on a different one. I won't be moving outside that selection. Although if it cheap enough I'm always willing to break my own rules They used to put two callipers on one disc on some outfits. Now there's an idea. You can't have too much of a good thing eh? |
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Post by steve63 on Jan 11, 2024 14:09:30 GMT 1
My LC250 stock M/cylinder, disc & calliper work fine Similar to dougw regular service/clean calliper, braided line, EBC pads and Motul fluid. This is more than adequate for me. Best regards Johnny C. Back in the day I converted a 250 to 350 and was too lazy to do the brakes (check, refurb or change them). I had a couple of scary moments on the road when I thought my days were over as I squeezed the lever as if my life depended on it...... and it probably did I was young and daft then. Just daft now. |
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Post by dougw on Jan 11, 2024 15:00:41 GMT 1
As a club race novice in the 80s I raced a 350LC converted from a 250 with only a single disc at Mallory Park.
Ferodo race compound pads.
No problem for a few laps then it started fading badly going into the hairpin, leading me to discover it was possible to get round the hairpin quicker than I had previously thought possible.
My pace was quick enough to get the trophy for "Best Newcomer".
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Post by freddie19 on Jan 11, 2024 15:06:39 GMT 1
I have the F2 front end with the twin pot calipers on my LC2.
As I've said many times before they are more than enough brakes for the bike. 2 finger braking all day long and very little lever travel.
Could do with changing the fluid this year which will only make them even better!😁
Unfortunately won't fit 4L0 forks without adapters!😵💫
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Post by mangocrazy on Jan 11, 2024 16:30:20 GMT 1
I've never been a fan of the stock brake setup on a 4L0 350LC, even with the calipers completely stripped, cleaned, new seals, stainless pistons, plated sliders etc. they were poor. Back in the day I didn't notice, but modern brakes make you realise what is possible, and that simply isn't possible on the OE setup. I tried the 1/2" mastercylinder and that was a definite improvement, especially in the feel stakes. It no longer felt like I had teak pads and discs. But the real improvement only came when I bit the bullet, bought some caliper adapters (from Japan!) and fitted 4 pot Brembos (as used on 916 Ducatis etc.) This is what they look like:
 At first I carried on using the 1/2" Nissin m/cyl, but they were just too spongey. Then I had a natter with a guy who seems to knows about these things and he suggested using a 16mm m/cyl off an early 2000s FZ6 Yam, which was made by Brembo, not Nissin. This would mean calipers and m/cyl were matched and from the same manufacturer. The other big advantage was that it had the Yamaha LH thread mirror mount in the casting, as well as an integrated reservoir and was a very close visual match to the OE Nissin one. I got one off ebay, fitted it, and it's absolutely bang on. Loads of feel, really powerful and no roughness whatsoever. The lever has a span adjuster, which is really worth having and the only slight downside is that I'll have to make up a one-off brake light lead, but that won't be a problem. So if anyone follows me down this route, an FZ6 16mm Brembo m/cyl is the hot ticket. |
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crogthomas
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Post by crogthomas on Jan 15, 2024 16:09:33 GMT 1
I think 16mm is the standard size for the Ducati 916, so it makes sense that it works nicely.
The stock 350LC master is 5/8", which works out to be 15.9mm, so would probably also work just as well.
Another way to improve (or at lease optimise) the standard system slightly is to move the master cylinder inward along the bars, if possible. I don't think there is room on the standard handlebars, but if you have something else fitted you might be able to space the throttle/grip and the master cylinder apart, so that you are pulling on the lever closer to its end. Adding 10mm equals about 10% more leverage and the same increase in braking force.
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Post by mangocrazy on Jan 16, 2024 14:00:22 GMT 1
I think 16mm is the standard size for the Ducati 916, so it makes sense that it works nicely. The stock 350LC master is 5/8", which works out to be 15.9mm, so would probably also work just as well. I did try the standard (and completely refurbished) 5/8" master cylinder with the Brembo calipers but they were just as wooden and lacking feel as they were with the OE Nissin calipers. I can only assume that the Brembo (FZ6) master cylinder had a different leverage ratio due to repositioning of pivot points etc. as the difference between 5/8" (15.875 mm) OE and 16mm Brembo (FZ6) master cylinders was like night and day. |
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crogthomas
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Post by crogthomas on Jan 18, 2024 13:40:22 GMT 1
Seems likely. I was about to add 'if the lever ratio is the same'.
It seems lever ratios have been identical between many brands until very recently. Radial master cylinders in particular, have confused everything.
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Post by spooch63 on Jan 28, 2024 14:47:30 GMT 1
AP Lockheed calipers with quality pads and EBC discs work well, the calipers could be considered a period upgrade. Standard 350 master cylinder.
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