phantom
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Post by phantom on Nov 19, 2022 12:25:51 GMT 1
I need some help since I'll be going to build a 421cc upon reconsidering my option to ditch my original plan on going for the 392 but now the 421 got my interest.
There are some question about the 421cc that I may need to get some clarifications to those folks whom may have worked and have further knowledge about it that can give me an absolute clarity.
The YAMITO project bike that I'm currently working with will mostly be used more for street/road and rarely on track and I want to achieve getting a 80-100hp on it but I do not know what brand of cylinder I should get to achieve the target HP point that I want to achieve, well some said go for the Athena ones as they are better suited for road while others said to just grab CPI/Serval over the Athena.
I am wondering is it still safe to use the stock gearboxes when hitting 80-100hp?
There are some answers that make it unclear for me as many said it's still okay to use the stock gearbox even if its 100hp but going higher I'll be needing the billet gearboxes, while others said going over 80-100+HP I definitely be needing the billet gearbox for good while other have suggest to just go grab a 1st-3rd close ratio conversions and hope for the best while these mixes suggestion it does still confuses me about this concern also the fact that the prices of a complete gearbox is not a joke to begin with.
how's the maintenance with these 100hp engines?
are they really that fast to wear and tear as many claims it is faster to go maintenance when having higher HP on the engine than some lower built hp's in mind
what would be the best carb size set up for a 421?
as I have two mikuni 35mm carbs that I may end up re-jetting up but others said go for the Keihin PWK 38mm Airstrker instead.
is it worth getting the cool heads over the stock included ones on the 421 kits?
or its better to skip getting cool heads and just focus on other necessary parts that I may need mostly
what are the best mods I need to achieve the HP I am targeting with?
Will the stock clutch hub housing be good to go? or do I need to grab some billet clutch hub instead?
I have found someone who will do the Dyno, custom titanium made chamber, new wire loom, engine cradles and such for my build.
so far here are the parts that I have on hand :
vforce 4 reeds
Zeeltronic pcdi-10t
Zeeltronic handheld and usb type programmer
Heavy duty Clutch pack
Heavy duty springs
Straight cut water gear
Slick shift detent arm
Billet Water Pump Cover
Billet impeller
straight cut primary gears
Aprilia RSV4 front fork set up for both my bike and my own weight
Ducati Panigale V4R Ohlins Rear shock
Ohlins steering damper
Brembo M4 front and back
Some Digital LCD Chinese Dashboard (for trial if not I may grab a Starlane dashboard instead)
Parts that I'm about to grab :
Hotrods +4mm crank
421cc big bore kit maker still unknown which will be
Driveline ball bearing type lock up clutch
Genuine Output Gearbox Bearing
Genuine Output Gearbox Needle Bearing
Genuine Input Gearbox Bearing
Genuine Input Gearbox Needle Bearing
Pancake Clutch Pusher
Ceramic ball
Starlane Davinci II Digital Dashboard (STILL NOT SURE)
any other suggestions will greatly help me out.
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Post by Tobyjugs on Nov 19, 2022 21:30:56 GMT 1
I will ask a friend, Pim in Holland if you can contact him. He has been where you want to go. I'm pretty sure he can answer all your questions. If its good I will PM you his telephone number.
Personally Serval, or Driveline will be OK as there will be room for your tuner to adjust them to your liking.
Most of your "I have got" list sounds great and it's going to be a fast little bike to make people think what's wrong with my bike.
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phantom
Weekend rider
I ended up needing a new pair of underwear
Posts: 60
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Post by phantom on Nov 20, 2022 0:08:20 GMT 1
I will ask a friend, Pim in Holland if you can contact him. He has been where you want to go. I'm pretty sure he can answer all your questions. If its good I will PM you his telephone number. Personally Serval, or Driveline will be OK as there will be room for your tuner to adjust them to your liking. Most of your "I have got" list sounds great and it's going to be a fast little bike to make people think what's wrong with my bike. That will be great, thank you!! |
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Post by steve63 on Nov 23, 2022 14:05:54 GMT 1
80 to 100 is a wide band. I'm not an expert but I'd think there is a big difference in price & parts needed between 80 and 100hp.
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phantom
Weekend rider
I ended up needing a new pair of underwear
Posts: 60
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Post by phantom on Nov 23, 2022 15:21:57 GMT 1
80 to 100 is a wide band. I'm not an expert but I'd think there is a big difference in price & parts needed between 80 and 100hp. Not an expert neither sad to say. I just want a little rocket ship but its my first time working on this kind of project to be honest. |
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Post by abar121 on Nov 23, 2022 15:57:27 GMT 1
Get searching on here, there is a load of content on this.
I think JonW had written a big bore primer, which as very useful. The website is down now, perhaps he has a copy.
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phantom
Weekend rider
I ended up needing a new pair of underwear
Posts: 60
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Post by phantom on Nov 24, 2022 1:18:17 GMT 1
Get searching on here, there is a load of content on this. I think JonW had written a big bore primer, which as very useful. The website is down now, perhaps he has a copy. did do a search but some may have little to no info I may need on my build, saw JonW post but need some refreshers for it. but will do, thanks for the suggestions!! |
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Post by JonW on Nov 24, 2022 7:17:36 GMT 1
Get searching on here, there is a load of content on this. I think JonW had written a big bore primer, which as very useful. The website is down now, perhaps he has a copy. did do a search but some may have little to no info I may need on my build, saw JonW post but need some refreshers for it. but will do, thanks for the suggestions!! My website is now gone, but you can find pages of it on the wayback machine. Good luck with your build. |
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Post by steve63 on Nov 24, 2022 7:36:46 GMT 1
I have a YPVS engine that's had a long and hard life then been sat for over 25 years so I have similar ambitions or in my case maybe just the curiosity. Your list looks a bit expensive for me. What I was hinting at in my previous post was that 80hp is what they reckon the F2 bikes had roughly and should be obtainable on my kind of budget whereas 100hp is in a different league. I always imagined an F2 type powered LC would be awesome on the road but a 100hp LC I could not imagine 😁
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Post by abar121 on Nov 24, 2022 10:21:43 GMT 1
My website is now gone, but you can find pages of it on the wayback machine. Good luck with your build. I did look on wayback machine, unfortunately most of the page is scrambled by missing images / overlayed text, sadly. |
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Post by Robbieben on Nov 24, 2022 10:35:49 GMT 1
I have new pistons & rings, Athena Barrels and a cool head available that are all new, designed for a +7mm crank and gives you 465cc or thereabouts, I have changed my build to a 496cc now so these parts I have are new and available.
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Post by JonW on Nov 24, 2022 12:41:55 GMT 1
I have a YPVS engine that's had a long and hard life then been sat for over 25 years so I have similar ambitions or in my case maybe just the curiosity. Your list looks a bit expensive for me. What I was hinting at in my previous post was that 80hp is what they reckon the F2 bikes had roughly and should be obtainable on my kind of budget whereas 100hp is in a different league. I always imagined an F2 type powered LC would be awesome on the road but a 100hp LC I could not imagine 😁 Steve, where did you read that? I always remember 63bhp was the quoted max and that was at the crank. And... Yamaha did tell the occasional porkie... |
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Post by steve63 on Nov 24, 2022 13:55:23 GMT 1
I have a YPVS engine that's had a long and hard life then been sat for over 25 years so I have similar ambitions or in my case maybe just the curiosity. Your list looks a bit expensive for me. What I was hinting at in my previous post was that 80hp is what they reckon the F2 bikes had roughly and should be obtainable on my kind of budget whereas 100hp is in a different league. I always imagined an F2 type powered LC would be awesome on the road but a 100hp LC I could not imagine 😁 Steve, where did you read that? I always remember 63bhp was the quoted max and that was at the crank. And... Yamaha did tell the occasional porkie... Jon, When I said F2 I meant F2 race bike not the last power valve. Like the bike that Graeme McGregor won the Formula 2 TT on in 1984. I have posted pictures before of this bike. To me it's the ultimate LC. Tuned by Arnie Fletcher and fitted in a DRS? aluminium frame. He was clocked at 158mph down Sulby Straight. I had a heated discussion with someone who claimed the bike was really a TZ with some LC bits added rather than the other way around. My argument was that all the bits that make the power like the pistons, cylinders, head and cases were all LC. It was only the bits to keep it together and make it reliable that were TZ like the clutch and parts of the gearbox. Then there was the chassis. Basically it was built to the rules as they existed. Yamaha figures are a work of pure fiction, I'm not even confident you can use them as comparisons between models. I think they claimed 63 for the F2 road bike and 46 for a 4L0 but the opinion at the time was that a good production tuned 31K was making about 62hp around the same as a TZ250 E/F/G. I know mine was a lot quicker than a standard F2 road bike. Even if they claimed it was at the crank the loss through the gearbox etc. would make it the most inefficient gearbox known to man so I think they claimed what they wanted people to see myself. |
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Post by abar121 on Nov 24, 2022 17:02:03 GMT 1
Steve,
Are you going to do the porting yourself?
I wonder how the cost compares if you have to pay for the porting / rebore work, vs some big bore jugs / head. Especially if you can sell or simply don't have stock barrels.
Cheers.
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phantom
Weekend rider
I ended up needing a new pair of underwear
Posts: 60
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Post by phantom on Nov 24, 2022 19:51:29 GMT 1
My website is now gone, but you can find pages of it on the wayback machine. Good luck with your build. Will re read it out again but I think it may need some updates on a new website/thread 😁 |
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phantom
Weekend rider
I ended up needing a new pair of underwear
Posts: 60
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Post by phantom on Nov 24, 2022 19:53:30 GMT 1
I have a YPVS engine that's had a long and hard life then been sat for over 25 years so I have similar ambitions or in my case maybe just the curiosity. Your list looks a bit expensive for me. What I was hinting at in my previous post was that 80hp is what they reckon the F2 bikes had roughly and should be obtainable on my kind of budget whereas 100hp is in a different league. I always imagined an F2 type powered LC would be awesome on the road but a 100hp LC I could not imagine 😁 Hi steve, Each to their own accord,budgets and wants. Just trying to push my luck on gaining 100hp I want to get the hard grin, laughing and also might change my pants from the Powerband hitting unexpectedly 😉 |
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phantom
Weekend rider
I ended up needing a new pair of underwear
Posts: 60
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Post by phantom on Nov 24, 2022 19:58:03 GMT 1
I have new pistons & rings, Athena Barrels and a cool head available that are all new, designed for a +7mm crank and gives you 465cc or thereabouts, I have changed my build to a 496cc now so these parts I have are new and available. That would be nice but I'd like to try the 421cc first before going upper bores, I do not want to also put on my list a new pair of jeans and underwear 🤣🤣🤣 |
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Post by jon on Nov 24, 2022 20:34:21 GMT 1
80 to 100 is a wide band. I'm not an expert but I'd think there is a big difference in price & parts needed between 80 and 100hp. +1 To get to 80 you need kit, but can get away with standardish cases, gearbox and uprated clutch. 100 needs heavily modified cases, uprated gears and bespoke clutch parts. More with with Mattoon and CPI, but unusable in a bike as opposed to LWB quad IMO. Jon |
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Post by JonW on Nov 25, 2022 1:09:12 GMT 1
My website is now gone, but you can find pages of it on the wayback machine. Good luck with your build. Will re read it out again but I think it may need some updates on a new website/thread 😁 Feel free to do your own with your experiences. I look forward to hearing how you get on and what you achieve.  FWIW My website was up for 10+ years and added to all the time with new information. Most of it is still on wayback and while the formatting isnt always ideal there is still useful stuff on it. My point is that not everything in the RD/RZ world is 'new this week' and even older articles have great value. Anyway, thats just my 2c. |
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Post by JonW on Nov 25, 2022 1:42:14 GMT 1
80 to 100 is a wide band. I'm not an expert but I'd think there is a big difference in price & parts needed between 80 and 100hp. +1 To get to 80 you need kit, but can get away with standardish cases, gearbox and uprated clutch. 100 needs heavily modified cases, uprated gears and bespoke clutch parts. More with with Mattoon and CPI, but unusable in a bike as opposed to LWB quad IMO. Jon I agree with you Jon and Steve. Also there is a vast difference between RWHP and @thecrank. Lets talk RWHP and assume a dyno that isnt trying to make you feel good about yourself*, or sell a product. In which case I think mid 80's is reasonably affordably achievable (depends on your wallet lol) but to get to 100 with the banshee kits in our bike frames isnt as easy and means more expense to get round problems. * - A dyno can say what you want it to say within reason. Always bear that in mind. Also, how liveable is a tuned to the nines 100bhp LC/YPVS or even a Mito on the road? bendy frames, small wheelbase... plus, race tunes and traffic dont mix too well. I was seeking as much usable torque in my build as possible, rather than out n out bragging rights for bhp figures. 100bhp is a dream really, 80-90 was more realistic. But for me an 80-85bhp LC was what i was aiming for - ie LC characteristics but more than double the bhp at the wheel. I probably didnt quite hit my briefs top end power wise if im honest and im good with that as its 'fast enough'. FWIW Ive owned tuned cars most of my life and often had to dial back the bhp to actually use them in the real world. Eg I found that my old Mk2 Golf 16v Turbo with 250+ wheel bhp is undriveable due to torque steer but around 220 it was just about ok. Sometimes you have to sacrifice power for usability. Tuning is a balance of reliability, usability, bhp and torque. You rarely get to have all 4. There have been a few big power builds in our little corner of the bike world. I know a few guys with Athena 421s and they all still work etc. Once you step above 421 there are less builds out there so less data about power and reliability. Arron on here has a 443 (called The Bitch!) and i bet that hes in the high 80s using Athena and parts from Wicked and its reliable and usable. For really big ccs... far less out there... 10+ years back Paul Baritakis had a 485 (Trinity with PVs) on the RDRZ500 forum that im sure managed 100bhp or so here in Aus, but hes not posted about there in years. Other guys like Lee, Pete, Justin and a few others on here (some now left, some bikes long gone) have/had 421s too that were ridden, most were Athena. Re chasing power I remember Chris and Darren just after I did my 421 did some Athena 421 LCs and posted on here and Darren was still making his more powerful (and bigger?) for years and Im sure he cracked 100bhp, but reliability was an issue for him for sure, and maybe he had bigger cyls as time when on? As you can tell a lot of us used Athena as the cylinder is well known. Maybe its not the 'best one ever made' but its affordable and the conversion is 'known'. Its also very tuneable. I have a mate with one with Wicked's SR71 tune etc. My point about Athena is that sometimes its quicker and easier to not plough your own furrow... I wasnt the first to do one, but i was the first to write about it all those years ago. In other useful news, I know Dave Mutts has been working on his own stuff and I expect he can crack the bhp ton and to be honest I'd be looking at talking to him if i was the OP. FWIW The banshee sellers all promote mega bhp and its often not proven as bhp is just marketing and appeals to the American Banshee owners, plus the porting for dunes and drag racing isnt ideal on the road. Dave knows bikes... The banshee sellers just sell parts to banshee owners. TDR and Wicked are the only ones I know of who dabble in our bikes in the USA etc. Roger tunes on an Athena base but has vast experience with other cylinders too and Tony has been talking about building his own cyls for ages, he said recently they would be available soon... talk to all those guys too if spending money. The thing people dont think about is... Packaging. Do these mods fit in a bike frame? Hint: They probably dont. The banshee has a lot more real estate for big carbs and pipes etc. You'll certainly need a manifold that lifts the carbs if going for big carbs or you cant actuate the clutch etc. I'd also be upgrading the output bearing as a minimum. Its not expensive to find, but Id do them all for this power. All this info about upgrading and packaging issues is talked about on this and the RDRZ500 forums in build threads. Read em and learn, most guys have fed back about problems and fixes/workarounds as well. Honestly the best advice I can give is to read every single thing you can about those older builds. The packaging issue is the same now as it was 10 years back... even in a Mito. Same with the standard clutch limits... etc etc. Anyway, I'll not harp on. I'll duck out and let's see what the OP builds. Hes been talking about this for a while now (a couple of years at least) and has heard most of what ive said here before when he asked initially. Im either a stuck record or nothing has changed haha! Im absolutely keen to see the OPs bike come together and hear his feedback as that will help the next guy to build their dream bike. 'Experience comes from doing' |
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phantom
Weekend rider
I ended up needing a new pair of underwear
Posts: 60
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Post by phantom on Nov 25, 2022 2:35:42 GMT 1
Will re read it out again but I think it may need some updates on a new website/thread 😁 Feel free to do your own with your experiences. I look forward to hearing how you get on and what you achieve. FWIW My website was up for 10+ years and added to all the time with new information. Most of it is still on wayback and while the formatting isnt always ideal there is still useful stuff on it. My point is that not everything in the RD/RZ world is 'new this week' and even older articles have great value. Anyway, thats just my 2c. Will do Jon, thank you will update this thread once I got all the parts needed out so I can commence building it all at once  |
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phantom
Weekend rider
I ended up needing a new pair of underwear
Posts: 60
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Post by phantom on Nov 25, 2022 2:37:18 GMT 1
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Post by muttsnuts on Nov 25, 2022 11:01:44 GMT 1
I'll try and come back to this and give you some real world advice, just busy sorting stuff after the burgalry at the workshop, but I can answer all of your questions and more, I've built engines ranging from 75bhp (huge bottom end and torque) upto 120+bhp engines, its as much a question of money as it is about what you want
I'll throw in some real world advice as well, I sold my 100bhp Aprilia RS421 earlier this year to a guy, told him to ride it before buying as it might be too much, he said it was fine, he bought, then riode it, then said it was too much and scared him and recently was thinkng of selling it I think !
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Post by Robbieben on Nov 25, 2022 11:39:13 GMT 1
I'll throw in some real world advice as well, I sold my 100bhp Aprilia RS421 earlier this year to a guy, told him to ride it before buying as it might be too much, he said it was fine, he bought, then riode it, then said it was too much and scared him and recently was thinkng of selling it I think ! I've bought 2 very low miles bikes off people for just that reason, both bought bikes they thought they could handle..first one bought a Busa after passing his test on a Honda 500 the owner frightened himself to death on the first day, rode home and parked it until he sold it to me, the other was a GSXR1000 2 days old and the inexperienced owner lost it on a corner, I bought it off his insurer and repaired it. |
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phantom
Weekend rider
I ended up needing a new pair of underwear
Posts: 60
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Post by phantom on Nov 25, 2022 14:12:14 GMT 1
I'll try and come back to this and give you some real world advice, just busy sorting stuff after the burgalry at the workshop, but I can answer all of your questions and more, I've built engines ranging from 75bhp (huge bottom end and torque) upto 120+bhp engines, its as much a question of money as it is about what you want I'll throw in some real world advice as well, I sold my 100bhp Aprilia RS421 earlier this year to a guy, told him to ride it before buying as it might be too much, he said it was fine, he bought, then riode it, then said it was too much and scared him and recently was thinkng of selling it I think ! I'll be waiting for this 😁, that will be great Info that can help me out. |
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Post by jon on Nov 25, 2022 18:40:37 GMT 1
I'll try and come back to this and give you some real world advice, just busy sorting stuff after the burgalry at the workshop, but I can answer all of your questions and more, I've built engines ranging from 75bhp (huge bottom end and torque) upto 120+bhp engines, its as much a question of money as it is about what you want I'll throw in some real world advice as well, I sold my 100bhp Aprilia RS421 earlier this year to a guy, told him to ride it before buying as it might be too much, he said it was fine, he bought, then riode it, then said it was too much and scared him and recently was thinkng of selling it I think ! Never done it myself, but read plenty of info, and can imagine it clearly. Pub BHP figures are not what to go for. Apparently after being away from the ‘scene’ for some years, some scooter owners have gone this direction? BHP is only part of the recipe. Torque is a massive factor if riding on the road. Also the curve is so important. 40HP at 6k going to 100HP at 10k is simply no good for a road bike. Let alone unfavourable road conditions or traffic. You mention it’s mostly for the road, so my advice is put BHP to the back of the list over power delivery and torque. Jon |
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phantom
Weekend rider
I ended up needing a new pair of underwear
Posts: 60
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Post by phantom on Nov 25, 2022 19:49:45 GMT 1
I'll try and come back to this and give you some real world advice, just busy sorting stuff after the burgalry at the workshop, but I can answer all of your questions and more, I've built engines ranging from 75bhp (huge bottom end and torque) upto 120+bhp engines, its as much a question of money as it is about what you want I'll throw in some real world advice as well, I sold my 100bhp Aprilia RS421 earlier this year to a guy, told him to ride it before buying as it might be too much, he said it was fine, he bought, then riode it, then said it was too much and scared him and recently was thinkng of selling it I think ! Never done it myself, but read plenty of info, and can imagine it clearly. Pub BHP figures are not what to go for. Apparently after being away from the ‘scene’ for some years, so,e scooter owners have gone this direction? BHP is only part of the recipe. Torque is a massive factor if riding on the road. Also the curve is so important. 40HP at 6k going to 100HP at 10k is simply no good for the road. Let alone unfavourable road conditions or traffic. You mention it’s mostly for the road, so my advice is put BHP to the back of the list over power delivery and torque. Jon There are many reason why I want to achieve 100BHP one of the reason is that in my origin country having that kind of HP for a 2 stroke is one hell of an achievement as there's no one have that kind of thing achieve so I want to grab the opportunity and open it up on my country 2 stroke communities that things can be accomplished accordingly if well planned and also the fact to keep in mind the consideration that such power means a whole new lot of responsibility to shoulder with as it is no joke to gain such feat of power for a nimble 2 stroke. My second reason is that the bike will most likely put more on motor shows winning awards/trophy and such along the process inspiring other builders to never give up on their challenges face on their projects. My country road is unforgiving one either low HP or not every driver driving is a potential threat as they are like mushroom whom pop out of nowhere without signals or such 🤣 |
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Post by jon on Nov 25, 2022 23:23:34 GMT 1
Never done it myself, but read plenty of info, and can imagine it clearly. Pub BHP figures are not what to go for. Apparently after being away from the ‘scene’ for some years, so,e scooter owners have gone this direction? BHP is only part of the recipe. Torque is a massive factor if riding on the road. Also the curve is so important. 40HP at 6k going to 100HP at 10k is simply no good for the road. Let alone unfavourable road conditions or traffic. You mention it’s mostly for the road, so my advice is put BHP to the back of the list over power delivery and torque. Jon There are many reason why I want to achieve 100BHP one of the reason is that in my origin country having that kind of HP for a 2 stroke is one hell of an achievement as there's no one have that kind of thing achieve so I want to grab the opportunity and open it up on my country 2 stroke communities that things can be accomplished accordingly if well planned and also the fact to keep in mind the consideration that such power means a whole new lot of responsibility to shoulder with as it is no joke to gain such feat of power for a nimble 2 stroke. My second reason is that the bike will most likely put more on motor shows winning awards/trophy and such along the process inspiring other builders to never give up on their challenges face on their projects. My country road is unforgiving one either low HP or not every driver driving is a potential threat as they are like mushroom whom pop out of nowhere without signals or such 🤣 Maybe I’m missing the point, but the only reason I can see to build a compromised 2 stroke bike for the road with 100HP is bragging rights. Sure it’s an achievement as such pushing an engine to the limit, but I can’t see why at the expense of actually using it on the road, which you suggest. Have you considered why others haven’t gone down this route to ‘achieve’ this? Totally get this if you’d have said it’s a show pony. Jon |
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phantom
Weekend rider
I ended up needing a new pair of underwear
Posts: 60
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Post by phantom on Nov 26, 2022 0:03:40 GMT 1
There are many reason why I want to achieve 100BHP one of the reason is that in my origin country having that kind of HP for a 2 stroke is one hell of an achievement as there's no one have that kind of thing achieve so I want to grab the opportunity and open it up on my country 2 stroke communities that things can be accomplished accordingly if well planned and also the fact to keep in mind the consideration that such power means a whole new lot of responsibility to shoulder with as it is no joke to gain such feat of power for a nimble 2 stroke. My second reason is that the bike will most likely put more on motor shows winning awards/trophy and such along the process inspiring other builders to never give up on their challenges face on their projects. My country road is unforgiving one either low HP or not every driver driving is a potential threat as they are like mushroom whom pop out of nowhere without signals or such 🤣 Maybe I’m missing the point, but the only reason I can see to build a compromised 2 stroke bike for the road with 100HP is bragging rights. Sure it’s an achievement as such pushing an engine to the limit, but I can’t see why at the expense of actually using it on the road, which you suggest. Have you considered why others haven’t gone down this route to ‘achieve’ this? Totally get this if you’d have said it’s a show pony. Jon Maybe I haven't put the right words as to why or maybe I just suck at choosing the right term for it  ? the reason why I said it will be used on the road is because there are times I have to go on a 2 stroke events with the bike specially if the area is sometimes is inaccessible with a 4 wheels. I also wanted to first hand experience the joy, hardship, frustration of building such ambitious bike project of mine knowing the fact that there maybe some compromises along the way that I have to accept. This ambitious project of mine will be one of my other projects that are long been pending. "Have you considered why others haven’t gone down this route to ‘achieve’ this?" ANS - Yes, that's why I posted a thread here to get deep knowledge out of those people whom have built numerous unthinkable RD/RZ's on their careers. Totally get this if you’d have said it’s a show pony ANS - aside from the show and motivation the finish project bike will be put on my motorcycle parts shop  ~Phantom |
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phantom
Weekend rider
I ended up needing a new pair of underwear
Posts: 60
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Post by phantom on Nov 26, 2022 0:30:00 GMT 1
+1 To get to 80 you need kit, but can get away with standardish cases, gearbox and uprated clutch. 100 needs heavily modified cases, uprated gears and bespoke clutch parts. More with with Mattoon and CPI, but unusable in a bike as opposed to LWB quad IMO. Jon I agree with you Jon and Steve. Also there is a vast difference between RWHP and @thecrank. Lets talk RWHP and assume a dyno that isnt trying to make you feel good about yourself*, or sell a product. In which case I think mid 80's is reasonably affordably achievable (depends on your wallet lol) but to get to 100 with the banshee kits in our bike frames isnt as easy and means more expense to get round problems. * - A dyno can say what you want it to say within reason. Always bear that in mind. Also, how liveable is a tuned to the nines 100bhp LC/YPVS or even a Mito on the road? bendy frames, small wheelbase... plus, race tunes and traffic dont mix too well. I was seeking as much usable torque in my build as possible, rather than out n out bragging rights for bhp figures. 100bhp is a dream really, 80-90 was more realistic. But for me an 80-85bhp LC was what i was aiming for - ie LC characteristics but more than double the bhp at the wheel. I probably didnt quite hit my briefs top end power wise if im honest and im good with that as its 'fast enough'. FWIW Ive owned tuned cars most of my life and often had to dial back the bhp to actually use them in the real world. Eg I found that my old Mk2 Golf 16v Turbo with 250+ wheel bhp is undriveable due to torque steer but around 220 it was just about ok. Sometimes you have to sacrifice power for usability. Tuning is a balance of reliability, usability, bhp and torque. You rarely get to have all 4. There have been a few big power builds in our little corner of the bike world. I know a few guys with Athena 421s and they all still work etc. Once you step above 421 there are less builds out there so less data about power and reliability. Arron on here has a 443 (called The Bitch!) and i bet that hes in the high 80s using Athena and parts from Wicked and its reliable and usable. For really big ccs... far less out there... 10+ years back Paul Baritakis had a 485 (Trinity with PVs) on the RDRZ500 forum that im sure managed 100bhp or so here in Aus, but hes not posted about there in years. Other guys like Lee, Pete, Justin and a few others on here (some now left, some bikes long gone) have/had 421s too that were ridden, most were Athena. Re chasing power I remember Chris and Darren just after I did my 421 did some Athena 421 LCs and posted on here and Darren was still making his more powerful (and bigger?) for years and Im sure he cracked 100bhp, but reliability was an issue for him for sure, and maybe he had bigger cyls as time when on? As you can tell a lot of us used Athena as the cylinder is well known. Maybe its not the 'best one ever made' but its affordable and the conversion is 'known'. Its also very tuneable. I have a mate with one with Wicked's SR71 tune etc. My point about Athena is that sometimes its quicker and easier to not plough your own furrow... I wasnt the first to do one, but i was the first to write about it all those years ago. In other useful news, I know Dave Mutts has been working on his own stuff and I expect he can crack the bhp ton and to be honest I'd be looking at talking to him if i was the OP. FWIW The banshee sellers all promote mega bhp and its often not proven as bhp is just marketing and appeals to the American Banshee owners, plus the porting for dunes and drag racing isnt ideal on the road. Dave knows bikes... The banshee sellers just sell parts to banshee owners. TDR and Wicked are the only ones I know of who dabble in our bikes in the USA etc. Roger tunes on an Athena base but has vast experience with other cylinders too and Tony has been talking about building his own cyls for ages, he said recently they would be available soon... talk to all those guys too if spending money. The thing people dont think about is... Packaging. Do these mods fit in a bike frame? Hint: They probably dont. The banshee has a lot more real estate for big carbs and pipes etc. You'll certainly need a manifold that lifts the carbs if going for big carbs or you cant actuate the clutch etc. I'd also be upgrading the output bearing as a minimum. Its not expensive to find, but Id do them all for this power. All this info about upgrading and packaging issues is talked about on this and the RDRZ500 forums in build threads. Read em and learn, most guys have fed back about problems and fixes/workarounds as well. Honestly the best advice I can give is to read every single thing you can about those older builds. The packaging issue is the same now as it was 10 years back... even in a Mito. Same with the standard clutch limits... etc etc. Anyway, I'll not harp on. I'll duck out and let's see what the OP builds. Hes been talking about this for a while now (a couple of years at least) and has heard most of what ive said here before when he asked initially. Im either a stuck record or nothing has changed haha! Im absolutely keen to see the OPs bike come together and hear his feedback as that will help the next guy to build their dream bike. 'Experience comes from doing' Hi JonW " I agree with you Jon and Steve. Also there is a vast difference between RWHP and @thecrank. Lets talk RWHP and assume a dyno that isnt trying to make you feel good about yourself*, or sell a product. In which case I think mid 80's is reasonably affordably achievable (depends on your wallet lol) but to get to 100 with the banshee kits in our bike frames isnt as easy and means more expense to get round problems. * - A dyno can say what you want it to say within reason. Always bear that in mind." ANS - Yes I do understand that Dyno is entirely different once the project was used on the road itself, after all I also have to consider a lot and the BHP I wanted to hit may vary or change along the way. I haven't been biting other people offers on banshee kit as I only direct myself with people whom have dealt building RD/RZ engines themselves with Banshee stuff as I myself don't easily fall for some marketing talks by some sellers of banshee without any real world experience on building one themselves. "Also, how liveable is a tuned to the nines 100bhp LC/YPVS or even a Mito on the road? bendy frames, small wheelbase... plus, race tunes and traffic dont mix too well. I was seeking as much usable torque in my build as possible, rather than out n out bragging rights for bhp figures. 100bhp is a dream really, 80-90 was more realistic. But for me an 80-85bhp LC was what i was aiming for - ie LC characteristics but more than double the bhp at the wheel. I probably didnt quite hit my briefs top end power wise if im honest and im good with that as its 'fast enough'. " ANS - I have put consideration with any possible complications along the way within my build, although ambitious as it may seems and sound but I can compromise I do not mind not hitting 100hp as my target range but what ever HP I may get that will do for now to say. as many may have said and reminded me a powerful raw power bike is not something to pounder nor drag with as it needed to be treated with great and outmost respect as any twist of throttle can instantly give you a regrettable turn of events or a fun ride. "As you can tell a lot of us used Athena as the cylinder is well known. Maybe its not the 'best one ever made' but its affordable and the conversion is 'known'. Its also very tuneable. I have a mate with one with Wicked's SR71 tune etc. My point about Athena is that sometimes its quicker and easier to not plough your own furrow... I wasnt the first to do one, but i was the first to write about it all those years ago. " ANS - I do not mind using what either Athena/CPI or other brands as I am only asking and gather valuable info that may come in handy when building mine starts, after all the figures HP I want to hit I may or may not even reach in but that would be okay. " The thing people dont think about is... Packaging. Do these mods fit in a bike frame? Hint: They probably dont. The banshee has a lot more real estate for big carbs and pipes etc. You'll certainly need a manifold that lifts the carbs if going for big carbs or you cant actuate the clutch etc. I'd also be upgrading the output bearing as a minimum. Its not expensive to find, but Id do them all for this power. All this info about upgrading and packaging issues is talked about on this and the RDRZ500 forums in build threads. Read em and learn, most guys have fed back about problems and fixes/workarounds as well. Honestly the best advice I can give is to read every single thing you can about those older builds. The packaging issue is the same now as it was 10 years back... even in a Mito. Same with the standard clutch limits... etc etc." ANS - Yes some mods on my Yamito may need some changes, cut and replace those things have been in consideration when I've choose the YAMITO pathway but most have been dealt with. Pipes will be done test after test to get the best performance if needed, Manifolds can be fabricated, clutch parts can be replaced if my stocks are not that great to use on such build. I've bought the best top of the line bearings/seals and suchs needed as it is better to be safe than sorry. Yes the issue of others I have been gathering important notes on my notepad sticked on my shelves been conversing with the person whom will build my project alongside with me getting the best possible info as what I can gather that's why I have created thread for my build to get ideas, information and valuable things to remember on what I may experience along the way. " Anyway, I'll not harp on. I'll duck out and let's see what the OP builds. Hes been talking about this for a while now (a couple of years at least) and has heard most of what ive said here before when he asked initially. Im either a stuck record or nothing has changed haha! " ANS - Yes you are 100% Correct Jon  the project of mine has been stalled many times over the past few years, it just sucks to be Government Owned personnel as I have to go abroad and learn few skills and bring it back to the troops to learn, also the fact that laziness and unwillingness to get it done that should be done before on my end didn't go as what I originally plan, I've just got some free time and luck so here I am barking again for a new challenge to finish from where I left off this time no more excuses, may take me couple of trial and error before I concluded the end project build. "Im absolutely keen to see the OPs bike come together and hear his feedback as that will help the next guy to build their dream bike. 'Experience comes from doing' " ANS - this is also what is stamped on one of my brain lining another mans forum talks can be another person interest to get valuable lessons on their own projects. Cheers! ~Phantom |
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the project of mine has been stalled many times over the past few years, it just sucks to be Government Owned personnel as I have to go abroad and learn few skills and bring it back to the troops to learn, also the fact that laziness and unwillingness to get it done that should be done before on my end didn't go as what I originally plan, I've just got some free time and luck so here I am barking again for a new challenge to finish from where I left off this time no more excuses, may take me couple of trial and error before I concluded the end project build.