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Post by JonW on Feb 3, 2022 3:30:18 GMT 1
Usually there is someone that would argue that lots of our bikes (and of course engine cases) were damaged and 'ringed' back in the day. Often we hear about how every LC was stolen at least once, or was that Sierra Cosworths? Either way, for the humble RDs ringing was to the 80s what matching numbers was to the 2010s.  By that 'logic' some argue that it's ok to have a dodgy re-stamped engine number on an RD as the crime is so old and parts are cheap enough that no one cares now. Some if us do still though... Anyway... This one is not old tho. That sanding off of the number was done very recently. I worry that this engine was stolen pretty recently and whoever got rid of the number knew what they were doing and why. I know a few people reported some crimes the past few years, one was stolen from a member's car when parked etc. Perhaps this is one of those? www.ebay.co.uk/itm/154782137929Description: "YAMAHA RD350 YPVS CRANKCASES 31K 29L 1WT 1UA. Usable engine cases has the usual chain damage won't cause problem in use no engine case no present"  (cue seller coming onto the forum to justify this sale...) |
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Post by rigga on Feb 3, 2022 7:41:20 GMT 1
There is no justification for erasing the number, although it seems that some do think its OK
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Post by jon on Feb 3, 2022 8:27:19 GMT 1
+1
The way I see it there are 3 possible reasons to restamp an engine.
One is to hide its original identity. Therefore implying it might be stolen.
A common excuse/explanation is it was done to a legit pair of cases so they didn’t have to change the logbook. This is my personal favourite. Again breaks down into 2 scenarios. The owner didn’t want to go to the hassle of informing DVLA. Why it’s simple?! Or they were trying to recreate that supposed holy grail of matching cases. This is the laugh of it as doing it has potentially ruined the value and risks impoundment/confiscation for idealism.
Any of the above is wrong IMO.
The agreement it was done long ago doesn’t make it alright in my eyes. An analogy: let us assume a terrible situation where a member of you family was done wrong in some way (minor to major crime, you pick). If the culprit was caught straight away and justice served then OK. But we’re they found out years later would getting away with it be OK?
Jon
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Post by steve h on Feb 3, 2022 15:25:54 GMT 1
New sets of cases were unstamped.... looks like these were never stamped by the dealer to match the bike they went on. |
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Post by drc on Feb 3, 2022 17:24:50 GMT 1
That first set is definitely dodgy. You can see the marks where the numbers have been ground and filed off. These are the cases of my race bike and I ended up buying a set of genuine new Banshee cases from Boats.NET. At they time I was looking there were only beat-up crap cases on eBay for $4-500 and these were $559. It was an easy decision. On the genuine ones there is no grinding or machining on that part at all. Its just the casting as it came out of the mould  |
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Post by kirkhd on Feb 3, 2022 20:09:28 GMT 1
Problem is the Police aren't interested. About 30 years ago i purchase an LC with YPVS motor and didn't really pay too much attention to the engine number until later, so as i live about 500 yards from a station i took the bottom end around and explained that the numbers didn't look right. They just said don't worry about it !! as i was bothered about it i purchase another 31k bottom end. Strange thing was that the 1 was over stamped with a 0 but the 1 actually looked like a 2? 
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Post by JonW on Feb 4, 2022 0:46:55 GMT 1
The police are like us when at work. We might think that if you speak to one bobby that you are speaking to every bobby as they are all out of a mould, but like any business they are just people and as such are not 'all the same'. They dont all know everything (even if they speak to you like they do lol) and certainly are not all bothered about the same things. Over the years Ive been quite annoyed that one copper would say one thing and another would do an about turn on it later. This is especially true of the desk person at the station or anyone you talk to on the phone if you have a query, those people always offer different advice to the punter than the guy stopping you on the street. Imagine telling the one who stopped you that you spoke to the desk guy and he said it was ok... that wont be met with a roll of the eyes or anything...
When I moved to Aus I needed my passport to be verified. I went to the my local cop shop and asked the desk guy in West Swindon about that and he looked blank. I gave him my passport and he said he couldnt do it and the police didnt offer that service. When pressed he said, 'well Ive never arrested you, so you are not known to me... so how do i know this is real and it is actually you?' I suggested that if I was known to him that i wouldnt be allowed my visa so that was a good thing, right?! He didnt even smile at that, just saw me as a time waster. I went to another police station later and the guy said there was a procedure and he could sort it for me and he did.
So, imagine getting stopped for something and the traffic cop decides to see if what you have is a defective old bike so he can write you up and get another smoking old POS off the road. With less and less 2 strokes on the road this is a very real problem for us, cops will think you are polluting and have put diesel in your bike or something and yet your engine is just running 'right'. The younger cops will have never mixed petrol and oil... and soon they will probably only have driven electric and the noisy, smelly thing on front of them is in their eyes a true old POS, not a beautiful machine with history to be enjoyed...
Anyway, that cop decides to have a good look at your bike and checks they tyres and idly looks over the engine since its exposed. He sees an overstamped number... thats probably worse than a fully removed number as he will actually spot the overstamp, a painted flat area would just not register as its unlikely he knows where the engine number is on each and every bike (many are hidden of course). Does anyone really think he just shrugs and moves on to look at your forks for leaks? No, his alarm bell starts to ring as this is a first piece of evidence that things are not all exactly as they should be and he wonders about the rest of this bike and will probably call the frame number in as he senses he might have something to investigate or have to take you in. Cops are pre disposed to gather evidence and look at facts around them, things either stack up or they dont. You want all the things they see to stack up or things can go south quickly. The last guy they dealt with was probably someone who was trying it on, violent, on drugs etc etc and all of them were lying and they had to work it out. You need to be as squeaky clean as you can be...
Ok, I live in a huge city with the usual city problems and the cops stopping people is an everyday thing, this might not be your experience if you live elsewhere. So... maybe this doesnt happen everywhere. not all cops are looking to stop you and write you up and fine you, but with cars that obey the speed limit electrically (coming this year to a car dealer near you as mandated by the govt) how else will the police force get funded? Imagine all those cops who spend their days just looking for speeders being re-tasked... it wont be to investigate theft now will it?!
In Aus, certainly in NSW, the cops do like a good roadside check if they think you merit it and you if you did anything slightly iffy you can get the full roadside MOT etc. Ive had a guy ask me for my modification certificate for a totally standard car in a random stop even though my car is standard just because he didnt know what options came with that model of car. That was after he checked my car over, even checking the tread depth of my tyres.
A few years back they set a booze bust (its a big thing here and they set up in random places but they are the same random places lol) up at the end of my driveway cos there is a layby there. A mate of mine rode his ypvs up my drive and into the arms of the cops who were stationed close by. He got waved over (my driveway is actually past where they work) and got a talking to about noise levels and we had to repack his exhausts. He was lucky not to have his bike 'defected' and have to take his bike to one of their special testing stations to have the repair checked and the defect cleared against the vehicle on the system. At those places they can do a full check of your bike against the docs and as they are mechanics who are vehicle cops will look at all the numbers...
So, while one cop says the engine number doesnt matter, another cop (especially a specialised one) might well either have an issue or would at least want to do more checking than they otherwise might is my point. I prefer my interactions with the cops to be simple and quick and me leave with a smile on my dial...
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Post by dougw on Feb 4, 2022 14:12:54 GMT 1
In 1988 I test rode a 250LC for a friend. It was on a Q plate, with untampered matching frame and engine numbers , that matched the V5. Beautifully quiet vibe free rebuilt motor , I guessed it had been a race bike at some point but didn`t have a crazy tune on it. Q plates where not uncommon then, unscrupulous racers would sell the V5 that came with their race bike (promoting ringing) It was bought , run for a year , then the owner ran it out of two stroke oil on the motorway. A replacement 350YPVS engine was bought from the local breakers, stolen recovered, butchered engine no. ( I was offered the 250 engine for free, couldn`t be bothered , it got weighed in for scrap  ). The then owner was keen to do the right thing legally , contacted DVLA about the butchered engine number, and was told to stamp anything she wanted and let DVLA know. Anyway, she never bothered , left it a mates house. It sat outside in the rain for a few years, in the early 2000s I rescued the sadly rusted remains. Raising a couple of kids took up more time than expected, it got stripped , frame painted, and is still sat in bits in my loft. In the meantime, I bought and rebuilt a slightly less knackered LC. Anyway, getting eventually to the point, I have a 350 YPVS engine with butchered engine numbers, reasonable condition, bought legitimately, should it just be thrown away to avoid others outrage ? ( Actually, with a rare bit of foresight, I bought a set of YPVS cases with intact numbers to build the engine into, but this was before the prices went crazy. This will leave me with a set of cases with butchered numbers, would it cause outrage to try and sell them to help keep another LC on the road ?) |
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Post by veg on Feb 4, 2022 18:11:17 GMT 1
This isn’t about saddo’s outrage, nor is it about people caring whether someone has got a legitimate engine. That approach appears to say more about the posters than the general consensus on here of concerned owners and enthusiasts.
Those concerns are;
Unscrupulous sellers selling tat that isn’t fit for anything other than a skip, engine numbers that may not be what they appear to be being passed off as legitimate when they may not be.
The reality is some engines will have been legitimately re stamped and if that is provable all well and good. However because demand is such it has forced the market into accepting potential scrap. It has also to a degree established the bad old days of bikes being nicked for parts.
As long time owners and enthusiasts we regularly see new owners who don’t have the knowledge being scammed by these sellers. We also have members who have had bikes either stolen or attempted to be stolen.
So I’ll say again we have a healthy scepticism on here of shite being touted as something it isn’t.
Now members on here who may be involved in doing this or dormant members who have only posted once in a blue moon when asking for help and advice from the forum would be best adviced to take a moment and wonder why the general consensus isn’t positive re these ‘engines’ and irrespective of your own sense of integrity, or right or wrong.
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Post by veg on Feb 4, 2022 19:11:57 GMT 1
Yep and 60 posts all asking for help and advice or reactions to a seller attempting to sell shite that’s been called on it, in your neck of the woods with similar interests?
If you truly believe we are all saddos? Why have you sought advice on here before? Why are you so seemingly invested in defending it? How much goodwill are you interested in destroying? Do you think those that have lost bits are sad? Deserve what happens? It’s ok because they are insured?
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Post by midlifecrisisrd on Feb 4, 2022 19:13:43 GMT 1
Well im a saddo as you put it
A f*cking angry saddo
I've had one nicked, it still happens. Wouldn't happen so much if people didn't wrongly think a removed or tampered number is acceptable
Steve
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Post by andy748 on Feb 4, 2022 19:15:41 GMT 1
Just out of curiosity, how many of us have been pulled over in the last, say, 20 years and the police have payed any attention to engine numbers, bet it's not many. I have never had any scrutiny from the law in 35 years of road riding. No excuse for selling dodgy cases/engines if you know they are iffy though. Andy.
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Post by veg on Feb 4, 2022 19:38:27 GMT 1
So are you the seller of the engine then?
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Post by steve h on Feb 4, 2022 20:04:29 GMT 1
All my bikes are matching number bikes, I would not have it any other way after being on the end of vehicle theft.
When I say "matching"... the log books match the numbers stamped on the engines and frames..... but the numbers are the ones stamped by one of Mr Yamaha Sans operatives @ manufacture,
and no one else.
You only need pulling over once...and some traffic officers (whats left after being decimated) know their cake from their biscuit.
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Post by veg on Feb 4, 2022 23:36:57 GMT 1
No one stated he was a thief, people stated it was dodgy and then it was pointed out numerous times why it was dodgy, again highlighting the precarious nature of buying from eBay. You also highlighted previous posts on here that have said the exact same thing of dodgy stuff being sold on eBay so the message is very much buyer beware and very clearly annoys forum members.
What you then did was defend and justify and start insulting other members at no point saying it belonged to a family member, until I asked you directly.
So it appears that your lad has been the victim of an unscrupulous previous seller, what may have been a better tack would have been to have explained far earlier, Had you been a regular member you would have understood peoples calling out of what for all intents is a dodgy worn out engine.
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Post by dougw on Feb 5, 2022 17:05:31 GMT 1
Well im a saddo as you put it A f*cking angry saddo I've had one nicked, it still happens. Wouldn't happen so much if people didn't wrongly think a removed or tampered number is acceptable Steve Me too. My first LC that I had from new got nicked. My GSXR750 I had from new got nicked. I would never condone anything connected to bike theft , and I'm not calling anyone a "saddo" just pointing out that tampered nos can be from stolen recovered. |
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