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Post by spooch63 on Feb 18, 2017 23:03:41 GMT 1
My local art gallery had an exhibition last week on 3D printing, the usual plastic sunglasses and toys as expected BUT in one corner was an exhibit by Siemans of Lincoln who were showing a selection of turbine parts made in alloy and steel. The quality of the parts was beyond belief and this sparked an idea, would it be possible to 3D print a pair of 350lc barrels. After initial investigations it would appear this is indeed possible, not only that but the thickness of the barrel walls in theory could be made thicker, say a bore of 63mm giving (subject to pistons being available) giving the possibility of extra rebores.
Any thoughts on pro's and con's, have no idea on costs yet as this is still in the very early stages.
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Post by Tobyjugs on Feb 18, 2017 23:22:21 GMT 1
Hi spooch63 i have seen this method used a couple of times now to make special barrels for 50 and 70cc engines. To do it seriously it will cost you around 6000 euro's for research and development, then you can go into production.  No steel needed just nikasil, means more port room, means more power!!! |
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Post by spooch63 on Feb 18, 2017 23:37:24 GMT 1
Hi spooch63 i have seen this method used a couple of times now to make special barrels for 50 and 70cc engines. To do it seriously it will cost you around 6000 euro's for research and development, then you can go into production. No steel needed just nikasil, means more port room, means more power!!! 6000 euro's not entirely out of the question, bit a little expensive for a one off set. Didn't think of doing a production run but could be an interesting project if enough interest. Did you get any idea of costs for the barrels you saw made? |
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Post by Tobyjugs on Feb 18, 2017 23:53:47 GMT 1
Thats the problem before you have made your one off set you will have had to make several versions of each step until you perfect it. (Unless this is your profession). I wanted to make some special 4LO barrels but after talking to the people that have done it is easier just to convert some unwanted 350 barrels.
Sprint racing with scooters is popular in Holland and France so if you can make a good barrel you can sell them. The advent of the 3D printer has made it very easy to make the model for the moulds.
I was told around 6000 for the complete process. One man showed me his plastic barrel and said up until this part it had cost him around 4000 euro's and aproximately 2 years to develop and he was asking the tuner for his thoughts on what he had created and how he thought it could be improved.
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Post by spooch63 on Feb 19, 2017 0:10:32 GMT 1
Thats the problem before you have made your one off set you will have had to make several versions of each step until you perfect it. (Unless this is your profession). I wanted to make some special 4LO barrels but after talking to the people that have done it is easier just to convert some unwanted 350 barrels. Sprint racing with scooters is popular in Holland and France so if you can make a good barrel you can sell them. The advent of the 3D printer has made it very easy to make the model for the moulds. I was told around 6000 for the complete process. One man showed me his plastic barrel and said up until this part it had cost him around 4000 euro's and aproximately 2 years to develop and he was asking the tuner for his thoughts on what he had created and how he thought it could be improved. Not my profession, was just a though that I might be able to get a standard set of 350 barrels made up with standard porting as decent sets are getting scarce and expensive. Will see what the enquiries I've made so far come back with. |
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Post by Tobyjugs on Feb 19, 2017 0:20:46 GMT 1
I would also like to hear what they say.
Have you got some knackered barrels you don't want?
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Post by bare on Feb 19, 2017 5:53:06 GMT 1
3d printing in Metal is in it's Infancy.. so far.
Have you even looked at how Turbine blades are currently made out of a single metal crystal??
NO 3d gizmo is even near that level. Brochure babbles aside.
But Hey! fill yer boots getting some 350 LC cyls Crappily 3d printed.
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Post by veg on Feb 19, 2017 7:16:29 GMT 1
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Post by Tobyjugs on Mar 21, 2017 1:20:41 GMT 1
Hi Spooch I have had these pictures for a while but have been unable to load them until now
This cylinder has been 3d printed and is being offered up to the rest of the engine for fine tuning. Once this has been done the moulds will be made.
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Post by brg1200 on Mar 21, 2017 3:30:57 GMT 1
Well, at least it's rapid prototyping. What motor is that?
Fair point about nikasil, avoids dealing with two metal components, just one plus plating and finishing.
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Post by veg on Mar 21, 2017 9:17:29 GMT 1
Despite the naysayer I think this is a great idea. Be interesting to see how you get on. If you could get to the point of having them made bet you could sell a fair few
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Post by Tobyjugs on Mar 21, 2017 9:45:29 GMT 1
I keep thinking monoblock big bore
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Post by veg on Mar 21, 2017 9:49:39 GMT 1
I keep thinking monoblock big bore Tz700 std bore or tz750 for 375 per pot |
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Post by Tobyjugs on Mar 21, 2017 13:08:55 GMT 1
I keep thinking monoblock big bore Tz700 std bore or tz750 for 375 per pot Same as the cheetahs 68mm bore, but maybe the studs are not man enough to keep the head closed.
I am going to build a long stroke 4LO to see how that reacts. The above is a dream even though I know the people who could show me how.
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Post by Tobyjugs on Mar 21, 2017 13:24:54 GMT 1
Well, at least it's rapid prototyping. What motor is that? Fair point about nikasil, avoids dealing with two metal components, just one plus plating and finishing. I'm not sure, probably a Derbi or a Zundapp they are mostly 70cc sprint engines and are only good for about 10 hours running with max rpm between 14 and 18000 rpm |
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Post by icarus001 on Mar 21, 2017 13:54:45 GMT 1
I've seen a clip of a bloke that made a 9mm pistol, and fired it.
So I'm reasonably sure the technology exists to print a cylinder for an internal combustion engine.
I wonder if the big Jap manufacturers are researching this, or whether current production methods are still a lot cheaper so it doesn't make economic sense?
If someone perfects this then it's going to be a relatively simple procedure of just putting in the parameters and then printing off whatever size/variation you need. I assume this would do away with needing specific tooling and you could print whatever you wanted, for whatever bike, whenever you wanted - once it gets cheap enough that would open up possibilities for blokes in sheds all over the UK to start building some spectacular bikes.
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Post by mrloudly on Mar 21, 2017 18:03:06 GMT 1
Metal printing is coming on in leaps and bounds, even using it in jet engines now  link |
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Post by mrloudly on Mar 21, 2017 20:30:54 GMT 1
Metal printing is coming on in leaps and bounds, even using it in jet engines now linkThank's for the link, very interesting indeed  I can't find the article, but aircraft manufacturers are now using it to produce complex ducting as well. Even print in structural Titanium! |
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Post by jon on Mar 21, 2017 20:51:50 GMT 1
If the technology is good enough for FAA approval, it shows the technology HAS moved on contrary to some comments.
This should be very interesting for one off parts/prototyping.
However bear in mind if someone (possibly like Norbo?) was to stump up the investment money, LC barrels with Nicasil plating could be made by a company in Italy.
A F Rayspeed have used them to make the arguably most popular barrel for a Lambretta called a TS1. I think there is quite a big minimum batch to make, but for an investment I'm sure there are enough LC's wanting this to make it viable. After all the barrel could be made to look exactly like the original and no-one would know. They could be made with a bridged inlet, YPVS inlet fitting, improved porting and bigger bore, and externally the same. After all where do you think Athena kits (and others) come from?
Jon
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Post by veg on Mar 21, 2017 21:14:05 GMT 1
Good points Jon
If someone decided to go down this route you would need to get minimum forward orders to cover costs e.g. On this site see what buy in you get to judge demand, and take 50% deposits. That's how I would do it.
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Post by fatfastroger on Mar 21, 2017 22:20:29 GMT 1
I can assure you metal 3d printing has moved on. Though in the industry it's known as metal additive manufacturing, it's here and being used widely in all sorts of industry. I work in the 3d printer industry, we sell and service them and I'm visiting some interesting companies.
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Post by Tobyjugs on Mar 21, 2017 22:44:22 GMT 1
The prototype shown above will be made in Italy but this is one of the more expensive options.
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Post by brg1200 on Mar 21, 2017 23:22:22 GMT 1
Just on the cost of prototyping and manufacturing, a pair of barrels could potentially be made as a single component, I think possibly Fahron did this many years ago? Could be gery wrong on that, but wouldn't be the first time. I suspect unit cost would be more than a single cylinder of course, but (unless it could just be mirrored in Cad and spat out) might be cheaper to make a monobloc pair of cylinders than a pair of individual cylinders.
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Post by Tobyjugs on Mar 21, 2017 23:27:07 GMT 1
Just on the cost of prototyping and manufacturing, a pair of barrels could potentially be made as a single component, I think possibly Fahron did this many years ago? Could be gery wrong on that, but wouldn't be the first time. I suspect unit cost would be more than a single cylinder of course, but (unless it could just be mirrored in Cad and spat out) might be cheaper to make a monobloc pair of cylinders than a pair of individual cylinders. That's one of the reasons i think about a mono block, the other is the added strength and possibly more room for better transfer ports as this is the achilles heel with these engines. You have to have a lot of guts to do something like this not Knowing if you could sell them. It would mean no beer and rd fun for a year  |
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Post by brg1200 on Mar 22, 2017 0:05:58 GMT 1
Agree about extra room for transfers etc Mr Jugs.
Taking the monobloc idea in a slight tangent the early 90's modular Triumphs I think clamped steel bores between the casing and the head, with coolant directly on them, I have a recollection this is an old aircraft industry idea. No feckin use on an LC of course, but shows there's always another way to look at something, and avoid that tricky transition between steel and aluminium. But I digress ;-)
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Post by brg1200 on Mar 22, 2017 0:07:02 GMT 1
And yes, someone would have to have big cahones to take the plunge on this idea. But think of the street cred ;-)
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Post by icarus001 on Mar 22, 2017 4:09:56 GMT 1
And yes, someone would have to have big cahones to take the plunge on this idea. But think of the street cred ;-) I suppose it depends on the size of the investment, someone mentioned six grand, which seems peanuts for a business start-up, most of us appear to spend that a couple of times a year on bikes we don't really need. The issue for selling them is cost, can original cylinders be re-sleeved for less? If the answer is yes then people will still pull their faces at the cost of new ones and then get them re-sleeved. Lot's of people say lots of things about what they would buy if it became available, but when it comes to parting with their money they often have second thoughts. |
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Post by spooch63 on Mar 22, 2017 21:27:30 GMT 1
I looked into it with several companies that could print them to accurately but the problem I came across was the fact that in order to have a programme written for the printer I needed a set of technical drawings with sizes etc. and can't find a set anywhere. The other alternative was to get hold of a set of standard barrels and have them put into an X-ray type machine to be scanned then a set of drawings could then be made and a programme written. After a few weeks of contacting various people it sort of came to a dead end and with no other avenues to explore I lost interest as it didn't seem viable.
Alternatively the money I had that I could've invested in this project has now been invested in an RD400f.
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Post by Tobyjugs on Mar 22, 2017 21:52:51 GMT 1
Yes i was told a 3d scanner
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Post by spooch63 on Mar 22, 2017 22:50:09 GMT 1
That's it a 3D scanner, problem is I couldn't find one anywhere.
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