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Post by Pidz on May 25, 2014 14:59:53 GMT 1
Yes Shane. In fairness, the discussion is not about mineral or synthetic oils. Both have their purposes. It was between car engine oils verses AFT's and good old regular motorcycle wet clutch gearbox oils. And sorry slinger, I can't go with 'Any oil that has JASO in the label is the correct oil for wet clutch'. The reason being JASO is nothing to do with an oil itself. JASO is an acronym of the Japanese Engine Oil Standards Implementation Panel, which are a bunch of people. There is Jaso spec oils for 4 strokes motorcycles and a different Jaso spec for 2 strokes. And even then, that are broken down into different types of oils. Typical the emphasis on 4 stroke oil is to do with lubricating, but the 2 stroke oils are on the omissions of burning. but this discussion is about our 2 stroke gearboxes and clutches, not what we burn. Even a 4 stroke motorcycle engine should not use car engine oils, if it has a wet clutch. Who says so? JASO themselves. I took this information from their advice.
4T Modern passenger car engine oils contain more and more friction modifiers. While this is the good thing for those segments (reduces wear and fuel consumption) it's bad for the motorcycles. At least for those motorcycles which use engine oil to lubricate their transmission and wet clutch. JASO introduced the MA and MB specification to distinguish between friction modified and non friction modified engine oils. Most four-stroke motorcycles with wet clutches need a JASO MA oil.
JASO MA Japanese standard for special oil which can be used in 4-stroke motorcycle engine with one oil system for engine, gearbox and wet clutch system. Fluid is non-friction modified. JASO MB MB grade oils are classified as the lowest friction oils among motorcycle four-cycle oils. Not to be used where a JASO MA grade oil is required.
So to me, that spells out, KEEP AWAY FROM CAR ENGINE OILS! They are not intended for our motorcycle wet clutches. So not just any oils with JASO written on the bottle. It has to be JASO MA. As regards to ATF's, again this is another mother of a nightmare, because there are so many different specs. As pointed out ATF's are good on clutch plates and excellent for all rubber seals. This is because ATF's are not a petroleum based oil, just like our rubber grease. In fact they are not oils at all. While I am happy to have my friction plates and seals protected with an ATF and looking great through clutch window, I want the assurance that the metal cogs in my gearbox are getting what they really need. A good old petroleum oil bath. So going full circle and answering rider4life's original question, Putting new plates in so need some oil. would you recommend i use this? IMO, my answer would be no.
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Post by shane250 on May 25, 2014 17:02:06 GMT 1
IN comparison to my other vehicle an RX8 this oil stuff is pretty straight forward.
The RX8 has a lot of engine failures due to oils.It apparently. true synthetics cos it injects oil from it's sump and runs on it and synthetics don't burn right leaving deposits that are eventually harmfull to the seals working,yet running on semi doesn't seem to protect well enough. Some run an adaptor which allows 2 stroke to be injected from a separate oil bottle instead of it's own sump oil or as I do premix in the tank aswell as sump oil injected. You think you know by lifting a bottle and reading synthetic oil on it you would be getting synthetic oil,lol. Not true by a long shot aparently
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Post by steve h on May 25, 2014 21:19:28 GMT 1
I remember BITD everyone filled their gearboxes with Castrol GTX, come to think of it, it went in the forks as well LOL Yes! BITD no one ever read the Jaso this or Jism that labels on oil containers, so non of us ever got confused with it. If your awld feller had a gallon container of oil, it was robbed. Even GTX was used as 2t oil. (Remember Joey running out of fuel at the Creg on the 125? He drained a fork leg and used that oil as 2t oil to get him back to the pits) The only thing we used to take notice of occasionally was the viscosity number. And I don't remember many blow ups either. We even ran peds on Trex!! (wonder what jaso - jism would rate that .) If any of you remember the filtrate oil that was recommended for Hondas, that was full of allegedly friction busting graphite!!!!!and my cb900 clutch never slipped once.(Ferkin cam chain did though ) I think choosing an oil now is made difficult because we are now made aware of the tech. I still bung "car" oil (free mobil 1 top ups) in my 4t)
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Post by copper99 on May 26, 2014 10:57:08 GMT 1
Slightly on topic, I have a friend who runs all his (4 stroke) bikes on car oil and his never had a problem in any respect..and he keeps his bikes a fair few years and uses them hard.
Its not for me, I wouldnt be that lucky but if it works for him, im sure its working for others, no matter what the label says...
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Post by tygertung on May 26, 2014 19:25:57 GMT 1
Automatic gearboxes have seals too. If they didn't have any, how would the input and output shafts work?
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Post by Pidz on May 26, 2014 23:13:34 GMT 1
Yes cooper, 1000's of people use car engine oil in their bikes with absolutely no problems at all and for the entire life of the clutch plates. This is mainly because not only is there different types of oils, there is also different types of wet clutches. Some bike wet clutches are recommended to run on the slipperier car engine type oils. Yes back in the old days we did use car engine oils. The factories recommended this because that is all there was back then. But that was 30 years ago. JASO are the people who the oil industry look up to to set the standard for their oil products. These are the people who got feedback from 10's of 1000's of disgruntled motorcycle riders, saying they have clutch slippage problems. So much so, they had to devise a different oil for 4 strokes with different wet clutches. In the end, they came up JASO MB, motorcycle engine oil,(car engine oil), that is suitable for one type of wet clutch and JASO MA motorcycle engine oil that is suitable for the other type. In my opinion, if RD350's were 4 strokes ,Yamaha would recommend we use JASO MA because of our type of wet clutch. But they are not, and if JASO had said this all 30 years ago, the Haynes manual today would recommend JASO MA and not still as it does, recommend 10/40w motor oil. And on a slight tangent, but still the same subject. My LC2 is standard(ish). I have read on other postings that modified and more powerful hybrid RD350's clutches, benefit by upgrading the clutch springs to FZ750's. An alternative is to buy a trick clutch lock from Norbo. I am presuming these are to add more bite to the clutch surfaces under extreme power. If this is so, why after all the time, money and effort spent on enhancing the performance of friction, would you then add an engine oil who's main job was to reduce friction even further? Wouldn't that be kind of going backwards?
And in reply to tygertung, no one on here has suggested that ATF damages seals. Shane had said, he read they were corrosive to seals. You are quite right, if it was bad, the seals wouldn't seal. Although they contain a small amount of mineral oil, this is to keep all the rubbers and seals sweet, ATF's are hydraulic fluids. The primary job of a hydraulic fluid is to be forced through a pump and compressed through tubes, in order to move remote parts like pistons. Hence our RD's have brakes. It's ideal for car steering boxes, torque converters and other bits of automatic transmissions, but it doesn't give the lubrication protection requirements of a 6 speed constant mesh, metal geared teeth and bearing gearbox we all have. The amount of mineral oil in ATF's is only a minimum additive to to keep seals flexible and not a base for lubrication. ATF's are essentially from the same family as the DOT 4 hydraulic fluids we use in our brakes. Hands up to anyone on here who has experimented using DOT 4 in their RD gearboxes?
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Post by steve h on May 26, 2014 23:40:18 GMT 1
I know of someone who used to use hydraulic oil in the gearbox of his proddy lc. He used to change it every meeting.
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Post by Pidz on May 26, 2014 23:54:05 GMT 1
Well if you're his proxy, put ya hand up then!
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jools
Drag-strip hero
Posts: 299
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Post by jools on May 27, 2014 0:01:01 GMT 1
Many LC racers here use ATF in the gearbox - its cheap and does the job perfectly. as stated earlier, many clutches in Auto Transmissions which handle a lot more power and torque than our bike gearbox and clutches will ever see.
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Post by steve h on May 27, 2014 0:12:36 GMT 1
I know of someone who used to use hydraulic oil in the gearbox of his proddy lc. He used to change it every meeting. Sadly he's no longer with us, he was from the cart racing world, and quite good. I think it was something that he brought over from carts to bikes.
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Post by steve h on May 27, 2014 0:14:02 GMT 1
Mind you, don't fancy experimenting with GTX in a braking system
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Post by Pidz on May 27, 2014 0:15:29 GMT 1
Yes I totally agree with what is said. ATF and other hydraulic fluids have a major factor to playin bikes that are raced and maintained on a timed scale. The main class of use I am referring to is the 'normal', every day rider who is hoping to replace his fluids and parts less frequently and at a higher mileage.
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Post by Pidz on May 27, 2014 0:20:35 GMT 1
Mind you, don't fancy experimenting with GTX in a braking system No. Because GTX is on the 'too slippery' list. Try Halford's or Aldi's Motor oils!
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Post by arrow on May 27, 2014 0:24:02 GMT 1
I'm with bare on the GL4 75/80 oil. Works better than anything previously tried. Clutch safe too.
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Post by Pidz on May 27, 2014 5:47:53 GMT 1
Me too Gary .But bare does go on to say....Autoboxes are FULL of Wet clutches :-) It's formulated to be clutch disc compatible. Real issue is that it's not the very best possible lube for the Ancient (relatively) Gearbox bearings.. so their wear is accelerated. Not a issue on a racer though. ... and most of us do have relatively ancient gears and bearings, that do deserve the very best possible lube for non track day, every day riding. I don't mind dropping the oil and replacing friction plates from time to time, but not to split engine casing to replace the bearings that have had accelerated wear. Also, what brand of ATF does anyone recommend using in a RD350 gearbox, cos they're all different. I nicked a passage from Wikipedia. They don't do ATF's, but they know where to get the most accurate knowledge.Automatic transmission fluids have many performance-enhancing chemicals added to the fluid to meet the demands of each transmission. Some ATF specifications are open to competing brands, such as the common DEXRON specification, where different manufacturers use different chemicals to meet the same performance specification. These products are sold under license from the OEM responsible for establishing the specification. Some vehicle manufacturers will require "genuine" or Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) ATF. Most ATF formulations are open 3rd party licensing, and certification by the automobile manufacturer. Current OEM formulations are made from synthetic base stocks. Each manufacturer has specific ATF requirements. Incorrect transmission fluid may result in transmission malfunction or severe damage. So there it is to me. If putting the wrong ATF in an automatic transmission car can be fatal because there are so many different types of wet clutches out there, what is the correct one for people hoping to preserve their RD's gearboxes for years to come? Maybe I am wrong, but unless I can find more up to date info on oils and fluids, I am going to use good old fashioned dinosaur petroleum oils. This is dirt cheap, gives me the confidence to know that the gears and bearings are getting what they need. And more confidence in our RD's equals more fun.
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Post by tygertung on May 27, 2014 7:05:09 GMT 1
I figured you could just put any ATF in.
I have never actually done it, but my motorcycle mechanic recommended it.
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Post by Pidz on May 27, 2014 9:00:53 GMT 1
Probably could use any ATF in a bike gearbox... I presume the various types of ATF's would be for different auto boxes in cars. There is vario-matics, double clutches and many other types. I don't know of an ATF specifically for bikes. But if I did use it, I'd feel safer if I started off with a bottle of mineral oil as that shouldn't affect the other ingredients as it's already in there, albeit only a small amount and add the ATF from there. I'd be much happier knowing it has better oil protection for the metal parts. But then mixing ratios etc, is too much hassle. When I left the UK I didn't know what to expect, so I hauled over about 30 litres of Rock Oil 2T, 15 litres of Rock lite gear oil and various Grades of Rock fork fluids. Glad I did, they don't seemed to have heard of oil and servicing here. All they do is bitch about the price of petrol at 68p a litre. Gonna have to use 2 inline filters though cos it's shite.
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Post by blyth1970 on May 27, 2014 21:34:50 GMT 1
Rock oil lite gear oil. easy answer.
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Post by tygertung on May 27, 2014 21:41:12 GMT 1
I'm pretty sure autos have got gears in them anyway- they use planetry gearsets, or so I am told.
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jools
Drag-strip hero
Posts: 299
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Post by jools on May 27, 2014 22:59:48 GMT 1
Dexron rings a bell,but I havn't tried it.I use the Motul gearbox oil because I have it, and just for clarity, some of us amateur would be racers don't necessarily change the transmission oil any more frequently than the road users.
I would like to emphasise the stuff i use for the TZ750, with dry clutch is Nulon 80/90W gearbox and diff oil. it is an extreme pressure API GL-5 hypoid gear oil, recommended for use in most gearboxes and differentials for passenger cars, trucks, earth-moving equipment and farm tractors. Contains advanced extreme pressure additives that provide superior protection for gear and bearing surfaces Any gearbox with a helical gear drive oil pump needs this type of protection. ordinary oils will break down under the high pressures of the helical gears which leads to the teeth sharpening up over time.
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Post by Flying fridge on Sept 17, 2017 20:56:24 GMT 1
Just bought my bike 350ypvs it has Halford's 10w 40 motorcycle oil in, bike changes gear fine neutral always easy to locate will prob change oil yearly
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Post by KevtheRev on Sept 18, 2017 7:47:59 GMT 1
F.W.I.W. I bought a new Honda XR400R back in the day . I was using Silkolene Pro4 Fully Synthetic in my CB500 work hack and found it to be very good , no problems at all , so I decided to use it in the XR . The clutch slipped like a b*****d ! I won't be getting too experimental , I'll get some Castrol 10-40 , worked a treat in the XR too , lol .
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Post by bryan on Sept 18, 2017 14:37:27 GMT 1
Get a motorcycle light gear oil for wet clutches, does what it says and it's made for it so why buy anything else! Tried something else once and it slipped and cost me another set of plates on top of another 2ltrs of gear oil.
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