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Post by masonmart on Jan 26, 2024 13:33:46 GMT 1
Mango, surely Derek was talking only about the starting point for setting up racing bikes? It is beyond doubt that if you raise the rear of the bike you reduce the rake, make the bike turn quicker (not always better) and reduce straight line stability (not always to bad levels). On a race track the requirements are completely different to a road bike. When you say “benefitted” how do you quantify this in objective terms? I would say that without means of testing, such as lap times, then it is very difficult to quantify “improvement” and we must be careful of confirmation bias? With my classic bikes, which I tend to ride with great sympathy, love their classic lines and even their classic quirks, I feel that the last thing I want to do is raise the back end, I can justify far more that I would do first. Just stop messing about with the thing and ride it, they are beautiful as standard for road riding.
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Post by mangocrazy on Jan 26, 2024 14:45:30 GMT 1
Derek was of the opinion that setting bikes up 'on the nose' had benefits for both road and track. He was primarily track-focussed with his Hejira race team, but also built and modified hundreds of road bikes. It's been a long time since I did any track riding, but on a road bike I do look for similar characteristics; I like bikes that turn and change direction responsively and have never found that raising the rear/dropping the front has produced instability. I'm not going to extreme levels at either end, just adjusting it until it feels balanced. If a bike is set up correctly for the individual it engenders confidence in the rider and that's what I'm looking for. It's not that I'm dissatisfied with the LC - it's still the brilliant, grin-inducing bike it was 40-odd years ago, but when you ride various bikes back to back as I do then you become aware of areas of potential improvement (within the limitations of 40 year old technology, of course). I've owned the bike since new and in the 1980s I did all sorts of modifications to it - box section Hejira swingarm lengthened by 50mm, Marzocchi 35mm forks, Spax monoshock (also from Hejira), AP Lockheed opposed-piston calipers and brackets, Ducati Pantah clone fairing etc. etc. but now it's gone back to (mostly) standard and any mods I make to it will be subtle and not detract from the 'original' look. But with the benefit of nearly 60 years experience of riding bikes I'm able to identify areas that I suspect will improve the riding experience for me, so that's what I'm doing. I don't know about you, but for me this time of year the bikes are tucked up in the shed, away from the salt and grit. Now is the time for tinkering so that the bikes are ready for when the warmer weather and salt-free roads are here...
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Post by abar121 on Jan 27, 2024 11:26:33 GMT 1
I had an Aprilia Falco from new which came with the free semi-rigid paniers and rack.
There was a note inside that said to avoid high speed running as it will cause the bike to weave. It certainly did on long fast sweepers and lacked stability when loaded.
The high Euro speeds you could do back then would also cause the top fairing to oscillate and eventually crack the plastics. There were a whole host of defects on the earlier models that my bike certainly had which was made worse by the non existent parts supply. A friend used his for commuting and had similar tales of woe. A lovely thing underneath all of the issues, with a great engine.
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Post by mangocrazy on Jan 27, 2024 14:07:26 GMT 1
I had an Aprilia Falco from new which came with the free semi-rigid paniers and rack. There was a note inside that said to avoid high speed running as it will cause the bike to weave. It certainly did on long fast sweepers and lacked stability when loaded. The high Euro speeds you could do back then would also cause the top fairing to oscillate and eventually crack the plastics. There were a whole host of defects on the earlier models that my bike certainly had which was made worse by the non existent parts supply. A friend used his for commuting and had similar tales of woe. A lovely thing underneath all of the issues, with a great engine. That's very interesting - I can honestly say that the only time mine suffered from any instability was when I was running a shock spring that was far too light and had insufficient preload causing it to bounce off the bump stop on badly rutted roads. Once that was sorted it was very stable, even with rear ride height raised and the forks dropped through the yokes. Mine is one of the later models with black frame, so maybe benefitted from factory development. But the engine is great and with Oz wheels, Ohlins shock and 4-pad front calipers off the R/Factory models it's a bit of a sleeper.
I've got the Aprilia optional side rack and panniers but only used them a few times when we went touring some years back. Didn't notice any instability, but wasn't going banzai with the Mrs on the back... Here's mine:
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Post by masonmart on Jan 27, 2024 15:51:39 GMT 1
Alan, perhaps your Falco could have done with stiffening of the rear suspension and lifting of the rear to force weight from the rear to the front? My philosophy of not messing doesn't apply if there are real problems like yours was displaying which you really have to stop. It's based on my being a lazy b*stard too.
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Post by mangocrazy on Jan 27, 2024 17:07:29 GMT 1
After having a good look at the shock in situ and reading up on the spec, the YSS MZ366 shock is length adjustable from 310mm (standard) up to a maximum of 320mm. It's currently set at the mid position (315mm long) so before I get into the business of machining parts up or ordering rose joints with a longer nose, I think I'll just go to the 320mm max and see how I get on with that. If I still want it to steer quicker I can drop the forks through the yokes by 10mm or so; if that isn't enough I'll try therapy...
As a matter of interest the thread of the ride height adjustment is M16 x 1.00 and the overall length of the threaded portion is 25mm. Width of the top shock mounting is 40mm and of the bottom shock mount is 47mm. The diameter of both top and bottom mounts is 12mm; top mount is a bolt, bottom mount is a pin, both ends are secured by split pin/ R clip.
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Post by dusty350 on Jan 27, 2024 18:20:22 GMT 1
315mm is the standard Lc shock length. When the YSS states 10mm adjustment, it's actually 5mm either way of standard, so you will only increase it's length by 5mm over, not 10mm. Dusty
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Post by mangocrazy on Jan 27, 2024 18:54:31 GMT 1
OK, so it's +/- 5mm on standard. In that case I might investigate getting a rose joint of the correct size but with a longer thread. Cheers!
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Post by dusty350 on Jan 27, 2024 19:04:03 GMT 1
Correct regards the +/- 5mm. There is a small hole drilled into the threaded part on the adjustable end which indicates the limit of extension.
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Post by mangocrazy on Jan 27, 2024 20:49:14 GMT 1
Correct regards the +/- 5mm. There is a small hole drilled into the threaded part on the adjustable end which indicates the limit of extension. Yes, I noticed that and assumed that was what it was for. To be honest, 5mm of extension is neither here nor there - would yoou even notice it? It's not like it's multiplied by the linkage ratio as on modern bikes, because it's pretty much 1:1 - give it 5mm at the shock and it's 5mm at the rear wheel. I've been looking about for M16 x 1.0 rose joints but all I can find are M16 x 2.0 and M16 x 1.5. I'll ask at my local engineers on Monday.
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Post by Tobyjugs on Jan 28, 2024 2:34:39 GMT 1
An old friend has found me and he also liked the LC's in the late 80's. He sent me a picture of his LC from thar time and i automatically thought of this thread.
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Post by midlifecrisisrd on Jan 28, 2024 11:35:07 GMT 1
An old friend has found me and he also liked the LC's in the late 80's. He sent me a picture of his LC from thar time and i automatically thought of this thread. Something wrong with that picture... ...no brick under the stand 😂 Steve
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Post by masonmart on Jan 28, 2024 14:13:25 GMT 1
It's so easy to spoil what is a very lovely bike. Maybe I'll get it some time.
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Post by Tobyjugs on Jan 28, 2024 15:37:27 GMT 1
It's so easy to spoil what is a very lovely bike. Maybe I'll get it some time. The owner of that bike was the real deal when it comes to talking about LC hooligan. I could never understand how he could wheelie for such long distances including bends. That was Cornish roads as well.
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Post by abar121 on Jan 28, 2024 18:46:17 GMT 1
An old friend has found me and he also liked the LC's in the late 80's. He sent me a picture of his LC from thar time and i automatically thought of this thread. Something wrong with that picture... ...no brick under the stand 😂 Steve ..those pirelli phantoms! Phantom as in where did the fcuk did the grip go in the wet. My RG250 with what 30bhp, could light them up in 3rd in the wet Luckily the modern versions of those tyres only copied the tread pattern and nothing else.
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Post by masonmart on Jan 29, 2024 3:04:58 GMT 1
Sorry, I didn't necessarily mean that bike but how some modify their bikes in general. I'm perhaps unusual in that I don't like hooligan riding or loud pipes as these are things that turn Joe Public against us when we often need to be ambassadors to advertise our wonderful lifestyle choice in a good light. Just my thoughts that's all; the LC is a beautiful bike and was a real game changer.
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Post by Tobyjugs on Jan 29, 2024 4:33:11 GMT 1
Sorry, I didn't necessarily mean that bike but how some modify their bikes in general. I'm perhaps unusual in that I don't like hooligan riding or loud pipes as these are things that turn Joe Public against us when we often need to be ambassadors to advertise our wonderful lifestyle choice in a good light. Just my thoughts that's all; the LC is a beautiful bike and was a real game changer. Very true because the police in Holland do have periods where they target specific problems such a noise from exhausts. Once the police put up signs everywhere in Rotterdam warning bikers that they will target noisy bike exhausts. One man bought a new bike and was driving shortly after buying it and got fined for noise and the bike was standard.
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Post by mangocrazy on Jan 29, 2024 11:00:47 GMT 1
One of the strengths of this forum is the fact that it's a 'broad church'. You can see everything from nut and bolt originality on an LC/YPVS build to the wildest of modifications that leave very little of the original bike, and I love 'em all. Long may it continue. I'm in a halfway house - striving to keep the appearance as stock as possible, while incorporating subtle (mainly unseen) modifications to improve the riding experience.
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Post by mangocrazy on Feb 1, 2024 13:54:28 GMT 1
After thinking about it, I've decided to get my local engineering place to machine me up some inserts in the style of dusty's suggestion on the first page of this thread. This is what I'll be asking them to produce:
The smaller one will give me +10mm to +25mm extension over OE, the larger one will give +30 to +45mm extension over OE, and that's being conservative with the amount of thread engagement at both ends.
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Post by midlifecrisisrd on Feb 1, 2024 16:36:58 GMT 1
After thinking about it, I've decided to get my local engineering place to machine me up some inserts in the style of dusty's suggestion on the first page of this thread. This is what I'll be asking them to produce: The smaller one will give me +10mm to +25mm extension over OE, the larger one will give +30 to +45mm extension over OE, and that's being conservative with the amount of thread engagement at both ends.
If you are getting them made I'd be interested in a pair too May make it a little cheaper if getting multiples made Steve
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Post by mangocrazy on Feb 1, 2024 16:43:16 GMT 1
After thinking about it, I've decided to get my local engineering place to machine me up some inserts in the style of dusty's suggestion on the first page of this thread. This is what I'll be asking them to produce: The smaller one will give me +10mm to +25mm extension over OE, the larger one will give +30 to +45mm extension over OE, and that's being conservative with the amount of thread engagement at both ends.
If you are getting them made I'd be interested in a pair too May make it a little cheaper if getting multiples made Steve Hi Steve,
Yes, no probs. I've just been down to the engineering place and the owner suggested I buy the ali stock myself as he can only buy in minimum 3 metre lengths, so once I've done that I'll get him to make two sets. If anyone else is interested, let me know in the next few days....
Graham
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Post by midlifecrisisrd on Feb 1, 2024 16:49:52 GMT 1
Really appreciate that
The old boy engineer I used to use was the same. I'd buy an offcut from ebay and take it in to him
Unfortunately he is retired now ☹️
Steve
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Post by mangocrazy on Feb 1, 2024 17:09:01 GMT 1
Really appreciate that The old boy engineer I used to use was the same. I'd buy an offcut from ebay and take it in to him Unfortunately he is retired now ☹️ Steve I'm quite fortunate that I live in Sheffield, where there is still a strong engineering presence. The guys are really friendly and very helpful. The big problem they're having is that all the time-served machinists are coming to the end of their working lives and retiring. As a consequence they're having to buy more CNC machines to replace the dwindling numbers of staff...
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dex46
Thrash Merchant
Posts: 380
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Post by dex46 on Feb 1, 2024 18:46:02 GMT 1
If you are getting them made I'd be interested in a pair too May make it a little cheaper if getting multiples made Steve Hi Steve, Yes, no probs. I've just been down to the engineering place and the owner suggested I buy the ali stock myself as he can only buy in minimum 3 metre lengths, so once I've done that I'll get him to make two sets. If anyone else is interested, let me know in the next few days.... Graham
Hi Graham I’ll have a set as well please if that’s ok mate as I will be using a YSS Shock later on in the year on a hybrid build Dex
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Post by mangocrazy on Feb 1, 2024 18:55:39 GMT 1
I’ll have a set as well please if that’s ok mate as I will be using a YSS Shock later on in the year on a hybrid build Dex Hi Dex,
No probs, I've ordered a metre length of 6086-T2 aluminium, so by my calculations (not always reliable...) they should be able to get 6 or 7 sets out of that. You're on the list...
Graham
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dex46
Thrash Merchant
Posts: 380
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Post by dex46 on Feb 1, 2024 22:33:00 GMT 1
I’ll have a set as well please if that’s ok mate as I will be using a YSS Shock later on in the year on a hybrid build Dex Hi Dex, No probs, I've ordered a metre length of 6086-T2 aluminium, so by my calculations (not always reliable...) they should be able to get 6 or 7 sets out of that. You're on the list... Graham
Thanks mate once you know the price give us a shout much appreciated Dex
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Post by 3tj6 on Feb 4, 2024 9:26:58 GMT 1
I’d be interested in a pair too , can you put me on the list please ? Im in Dronfield , so could collect them 😊
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Post by mangocrazy on Feb 4, 2024 12:58:06 GMT 1
I’d be interested in a pair too , can you put me on the list please ? Im in Dronfield , so could collect them 😊 Hi Jon,
no probs. Have responded by PM.
Graham
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Post by dusty350 on Feb 4, 2024 20:24:00 GMT 1
When I had my extensions made, I got my engineer to do 3. 2 were for the twin shock Rd400 hybrid and I thought I would keep a spare for a future Lc. The dimensions for all 3 were the same, and on the twin shock bike they did exactly what I wanted them to - lift the rear by a certain amount. The one I have left was tried on a bare lc frame and swingarm with the inner mudguard fitted. It turns out with the extension bar fitted and the YSS adjustable eye wound in, the extension makes the shock too long. It fouls the part of the inner muddie that the shock passes through, so worth bearing that in mind . Here are the dimensions, hope it helps 20240204_084259 by dusty miller, on Flickr 20240204_084234 by dusty miller, on Flickr 20240204_084216 by dusty miller, on Flickr
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Post by mangocrazy on Feb 4, 2024 21:08:51 GMT 1
Cheers Dusty! The shorter of the two spacers I'm getting made up has a shorter overall dimension than the one you've shown above. Your dimension of 37.16mm will be 30mm approx in 'my' shorter spacer. At its shortest extension it will only give a +10mm increase on the standard shock length (315mm) but can be adjusted to +25/30mm. From what you say I'm not sure whether it will be worth getting the longer spacer made up, if it's bound to cause fouling. It would probably be wise to just get the shorter of the two extensions machined up, and try that out before getting more adventurous. No-one ever said this would be easy...
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