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Post by JonW on Apr 29, 2023 2:25:50 GMT 1
What we need also is a BB YPVS kit now they would sell Im sure. Make them triple port with PV controlled aux ports too. 392cc 90bhp sounds interesting I do agree that a PV YPVS cyl that actually makes usable power for a bike would be nice, not some drag/dune ported banshee cylinder for racing. I think Tony Doukas was working on stuff like this but hes posted less about it on the other forums so I suspect hes gone back to more 'shee focused work, after all thats where the real money is as thats where the volume sales are.
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Post by reedpete on Apr 29, 2023 7:52:10 GMT 1
Just to nail my flag to the mast… Personally I don’t think I’d in the market, number of reasons but perhaps it answered your first question which is wether it would be a slam dunk upgrade that the everyone would be attracted too.
But Little bit sideways more positive thought … to maximise the target market it might be worth considering them and market not only as a replacement upgrade for the LC but also a big bore LC conversion for an Aircooled 250. That could be as big or bigger market than the LC. The plumbing would be easily fixed with an electric pump and some tube clamped rad fixings. Just no one ever put it together as a plug and play kit.
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Post by veg on Apr 29, 2023 8:15:06 GMT 1
Serious question Pete do you think ac owners would do it though? I’m slowly progressing my flat track build, bought an ac frame for it, and I’ve an ac 250 bottom end, I’ve now bought a 4L1 motor as it needs to be Lc the hassle of converting an ac bottom put me off. So it’s not a straight forward conversion plus don’t ac owners love them because they aren’t Lc? I don’t know the answer and I know you are far more knowledgeable about ac than I will ever be.
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Post by rigga on Apr 29, 2023 8:58:26 GMT 1
As a comparison I contacted Martin @madbiker not long ago, regarding the big bore conversion they are now offering for the LC 68MM bore, ypvs inlets and suitable porting, I have the pictures and pricing, but Martin himself might want to comment on that .
So there is an appetite to offer this, so there must be a demand .
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Post by jon on Apr 29, 2023 9:20:55 GMT 1
What we need also is a BB YPVS kit now they would sell Im sure. Make them triple port with PV controlled aux ports too. 392cc 90bhp sounds interesting I do agree that a PV YPVS cyl that actually makes usable power for a bike would be nice, not some drag/dune ported banshee cylinder for racing. I think Tony Doukas was working on stuff like this but hes posted less about it on the other forums so I suspect hes gone back to more 'shee focused work, after all thats where the real money is as thats where the volume sales are. +2 These banshee kits are not the optimum power delivery for a bike. Sure you could mess with porting and other bits to get the power delivery less abrupt. With more traffic, terrible road surfaces and speed cameras everywhere, going into a huge power band could be a problem if at the wrong time. A big bore YPVS would be so much easier to ride, and for those who say they have sterilised the powerband, I expect the extra torque would provide more than enough of a grin factor. Jon
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Post by jon on Apr 29, 2023 10:25:12 GMT 1
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Post by veg on Apr 29, 2023 10:40:21 GMT 1
Think so Jon
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Post by rigga on Apr 29, 2023 10:54:29 GMT 1
Something in the water .....
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Post by midlifecrisisrd on Apr 29, 2023 10:59:43 GMT 1
What we need also is a BB YPVS kit now they would sell Im sure. Make them triple port with PV controlled aux ports too. 392cc 90bhp sounds interesting Totally agree 421 with blade pv's would be ace And proper electronic controlled ones, not the pressure operated ones I looked into it a couple of years ago when I was given the details of the guy that made them Went right off it when he wanted £3k ☹️ A cylinder and head for have that would be awesome. Steve
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Post by Tobyjugs on Apr 29, 2023 12:26:32 GMT 1
As a comparison I contacted Martin @madbiker not long ago, regarding the big bore conversion they are now offering for the LC 68MM bore, ypvs inlets and suitable porting, I have the pictures and pricing, but Martin himself might want to comment on that . So there is an appetite to offer this, so there must be a demand . Nothing new there, you would have a very smooth tractable power with 70 ish ponies two companies make the liners to fit into you cylinders.
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Post by veg on Apr 29, 2023 12:34:36 GMT 1
Would std bore barrels be more appealing? If we know that to reline std barrels cost £5-600 and these are all brand new at £8-900 would that extend the appeal?
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Post by Tobyjugs on Apr 29, 2023 13:03:03 GMT 1
My experience is unofficial Road use and track use. The Driveline 443 kit more or less straight out of the box and fitted to the block made moderate power just about everywhere in the rev range. It felt like a normal bike to ride. Then slightly ported it turned into a proper two stroke with a kick in the ass power band. It sounds great but the carbonation only works well at fully open throttle or no throttle. Try riding like that on a track, it's difficult. Half throttle at the moment makes the engine surge which is not a nice feeling in a corner as it tries to turn the bike into a kangaroo. Now I am trying to sort that. The engine is not near full potential but it does make you realise that power valves are a good thing. Another thing about the big bore kits in my limited experience of using one, is it turns it into an almost agricultural tractor engine with max rpm limited. A real two stroke experience is a high revving ring it's neck experience. Kenny TSA hit the head of the nail with his suggestion smaller bore power valve and high revving.
I really like what Dave is doing and those 70 hp kits he is suggesting will be easy to ride and no need for power valves. Until that is the porting tool comes out and you fall into that all consuming black hole of extreme performance.
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Post by JonW on Apr 29, 2023 13:42:18 GMT 1
Sigh.
My huge apologies to Dave for messing up his thread.
I'll ask Dusty to clean this up.
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Post by veg on Apr 29, 2023 13:54:35 GMT 1
Sigh. My huge apologies to Dave for messing up his thread. I'll ask Dusty to clean this up. Sorry Jon but I’m struggling to see how anyone has caused any offence to anyone else? Yep apologies Dave 👍
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Post by JonW on Apr 29, 2023 14:26:48 GMT 1
What we need also is a BB YPVS kit now they would sell Im sure. Make them triple port with PV controlled aux ports too. 392cc 90bhp sounds interesting Totally agree 421 with blade pv's would be ace And proper electronic controlled ones, not the pressure operated ones Yep thats what I'd like. Above I did write 'PV' and then my phone added the word 'YPVS', that wasnt what i meant... I will admit I meant for the ypvs bottom end as I dont have any LC bottom ends now and the ypvs is a bit stronger with more crank options etc but, my point was I'd like a big cyl (monoblock maybe?) that had decent PV system. Road tuned, decent torque and able rev up cleanly would be nice. I like to see a decent power increase over an Athena etc, so lets say 100bhp*. That would make a bendy frame ypvs a bit of an 'enjoyable handful'. * - yes i know we can make anything say 100bhp and im not chasing numbers, but i meant as a generic measure for what i was thinking about. ie id like a power/torque increase of about 25% over what the cheapo Athenas will provide along with real road rideability. Anyway, back to Dave's LC barrels.
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Post by reedpete on Apr 29, 2023 14:34:03 GMT 1
Serious question Pete do you think ac owners would do it though? I’m slowly progressing my flat track build, bought an ac frame for it, and I’ve an ac 250 bottom end, I’ve now bought a 4L1 motor as it needs to be Lc the hassle of converting an ac bottom put me off. So it’s not a straight forward conversion plus don’t ac owners love them because they aren’t Lc? I don’t know the answer and I know you are far more knowledgeable about ac than I will ever be. yes, but not owners of nice existing restorations. There is a clear trend towards more AC specials probably driven by economics and availability and I don’t think your average special builder is hung up on Lc or AC or green passivate… frame and engine wise, AC is half the price of LC. Regarding conversion complexity, the electric water pump route is the simplest but appreciate might not be for the purest. I don’t recall the choices and obstacles you encountered but will get back up to speed with that.
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Post by midlifecrisisrd on Apr 29, 2023 14:41:31 GMT 1
Really f*ck with nature
Air-cooled bike and bottom end with LC cylinders with pv's 😆😆
Steve
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Post by botty on Apr 29, 2023 14:43:42 GMT 1
Dave. Would these big bore Lc barrels work with your current mid range pipe.
Which is f#####g awesome btw…
Or would another specific pipe be needed.
Tax money’s burning a hole in my pocket 😁😁
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Post by veg on Apr 29, 2023 15:33:39 GMT 1
Serious question Pete do you think ac owners would do it though? I’m slowly progressing my flat track build, bought an ac frame for it, and I’ve an ac 250 bottom end, I’ve now bought a 4L1 motor as it needs to be Lc the hassle of converting an ac bottom put me off. So it’s not a straight forward conversion plus don’t ac owners love them because they aren’t Lc? I don’t know the answer and I know you are far more knowledgeable about ac than I will ever be. yes, but not owners of nice existing restorations. There is a clear trend towards more AC specials probably driven by economics and availability and I don’t think your average special builder is hung up on Lc or AC or green passivate… frame and engine wise, AC is half the price of LC. Regarding conversion complexity, the electric water pump route is the simplest but appreciate might not be for the purest. I don’t recall the choices and obstacles you encountered but will get back up to speed with that. I always assumed that the ac crowd were more geared towards originality more so than the Lc crowd (apart from dusty) as I’ve just not seen as many, IoM loads of non std lc’s most ac std maybe bar spannies. I guess like the Lc world supply of std stuff is forcing a change? What primarily put me off using the ac bottom end was the water pump and drive coupled with the weight and 5 speed box, Lc being newer lighter etc plus being more comfortable with the Lc motor. Cheers for the insight 👍
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Post by reedpete on Apr 29, 2023 16:43:58 GMT 1
I think that’s a very good reminder that Steve made; the moment you go down the highly modded LC build route this option would compete with YPVS bottom end and banshees or other Ypvs end. So it’s a very specific market that would want an LC looking engine. Let’s face it the generic ‘semi’ hybrid has always been YPVS engine in an LC with suspension upgrades or one type or another.
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Post by masonmart on Apr 29, 2023 17:14:52 GMT 1
Realising now that it applies to the LC then I would agree that it's a good option. Modern cars are bloody fast now and stop on a sixpence and keeping up on a lower power bike can mean having to cane it. I don't have an LC though so I can't be a customer.
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Post by rigga on Apr 29, 2023 17:37:34 GMT 1
Depends on your preferences, I never owned a pv, always LC, my hybrid is crying out for more power, and I could follow the Crowd and source a pv based engine to build into something better, but I dont want that, now a LC engine with 60 to 70 HP sounds like exactly what I want, and I think that would still make it very rideable.
Ill leave the 90 to 100 HP banshee based engines to others.
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Post by veg on Apr 29, 2023 17:50:01 GMT 1
Depends on your preferences, I never owned a pv, always LC, my hybrid is crying out for more power, and I could follow the Crowd and source a pv based engine to build into something better, but I dont want that, now a LC engine with 60 to 70 HP sounds like exactly what I want, and I think that would still make it very rideable. Ill leave the 90 to 100 HP banshee based engines to others. What you need is a tz700/750 top end. 😁
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Post by muttsnuts on Apr 29, 2023 17:56:31 GMT 1
Thanks guys, everything mentioned above is appreciated Having spoken a bit more today, its likely that it would take 1+year to get sorted, alot of too-ing and fro-ing with drawings etc, etc before anything is made, more over I need to stump up half the total cost of the job upfront, that's a major chunk of change (around £50k to £60k) bearing in mind this is only for the castings to be made, then I've got all the machining to sort, ceramic coating and of course pistons (700 in total) ! I've not shelved the idea, but its a big thing for me to consider, this is basically all of my pension fundbeing sunk into this if I go ahead and lots could go wrong ! Of course I am still actively looking for an alternative, ideally what I need to find is a small company/one man band that can do this, but in small batches, the snag is, these days very few companies/people exist who can make the patterns etc and are interested enough to do small runs like 50 at a time......... but I'll keep looking, its far from dead at the moment ! Dave, I wonder if its possible to find out who made the repro cyls that Webike are now selling? Im not 100% but they were probably sourced by someone large like Daytona / Mizuno etc? If you could find the actual maker of those you would be most of the way there as they a, have the moulds, b, have the technology to coat the cyls. Getting the bigger bore would be a relatively simple change, the porting would take more work and the integration of the larger reed cage would be a bigger change.... but it would be a good start as its already been tested and they sell these units to customers already. Food for thought... Jon, that's what I've been researching, that would be my dream scenario, but trying to find out is really hard, I am pretty sure it was Mizuno, but then getting anybody to confirm that, let alone find ot which factory/foundry actually made them is a dark secret at this time. If I could find that out, it would as you've mentioned be more than 75% there, the changes required would be relatively small and signicantly cheaper I've not given up on it yet, its a time thing more than anything, I've got a few ideas up my sleeve, so its far from a dead duck just yet, what else would I be doing if I used my pension fund to retire !
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Post by muttsnuts on Apr 29, 2023 17:58:53 GMT 1
What we need also is a BB YPVS kit now they would sell Im sure. Make them triple port with PV controlled aux ports too. 392cc 90bhp sounds interesting now that is funny you mention that Kenny as that is something that I am working on, now that I've got a few more bits of kit in the workshop some of these ideas are becoming more realistic to try....... I may be in touch as it sounds like you've been giving that some thought !
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Post by muttsnuts on Apr 29, 2023 18:10:57 GMT 1
Dave. Would these big bore Lc barrels work with your current mid range pipe. Which is f#####g awesome btw… Or would another specific pipe be needed. Tax money’s burning a hole in my pocket 😁😁 already tested the ones I made with the current mid range pipes, that's what I am riding at the moment, super stupid fun, 3rd gear wheelies on acceleration alone and I am certain if I revisit the mid range pipe design and add the new p[ort timing etc in I could make a pipe better suited to the big bore barrels with maybe another 500rpm higher peak power as trhe lower end has loads of power anyway due to the extra CC's, so robbiong Peter to pay Paul would work well in this scenario I am sure If I can sort this out, the options are pretty far reaching, easy to make a 421cc, or 443cc LC just by upgrading the crank to either 4mm or 7mm, which I now have the means of being able to make going forward now that one of my suppliers has confirmed they can get me the components I need to make 4mm and 7mm LC cranks (which require NO crank case machining)
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Post by muttsnuts on Apr 29, 2023 18:16:39 GMT 1
what I probably need to do is let a few peple have a go on my prototype and get some feedback on it, ok its not exactly as I'd expect alot of customers bikes to be configured as, mine has the ignitech, PD kit, 28mm TMX carbs and few other bits and bobs, but it would give people an idea of what its like, think its something like 42ftlb torque at 8500rpm
I really should dig it out from the back of the garage and recommission it, I got to a 1000 miles or so on it and then not had chance to do anything since with it, so it needs pulling out and dusting off, if only for me to strip the engine to see how things are looking, or just to thrash it the odd time when I get chance to ride it
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Post by muttsnuts on Apr 29, 2023 18:27:55 GMT 1
found a graph from a couple of years back (ignore the title of the runs as I use the same data file for development on this bike), the blue line is with mid range pipes on, the red line is with some high RPM pipes on, its currently running with the mid range pipes on and I've done a few tweaks to it since, but not had it back on the dyno, plus I need to change some porting etc and reduce the squish band and squish area a little as its a bit conservative at the moment, but it gives you some idea of how its progressing
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Post by peddrotzr on Apr 29, 2023 18:58:25 GMT 1
“what I probably need to do is let a few peple have a go on my prototype and get some feedback on it,”
Hi Dave can I test it for you I promise I won’t kill it like the last bike you lent to me to test 🙈🤪😂 You know it makes sense 👍
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Post by muttsnuts on Apr 29, 2023 19:04:08 GMT 1
“what I probably need to do is let a few peple have a go on my prototype and get some feedback on it,” Hi Dave can I test it for you I promise I won’t kill it like the last bike you lent to me to test 🙈🤪😂 You know it makes sense 👍 urm.......let me think about that
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