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Post by JMW on May 24, 2022 17:55:33 GMT 1
Kind of wondering how much longer the current bubble of insane prices for strokers will last.
Surely the days of circa £20k for a 500 and £9k plus for an LC just can’t continue?
I just paid £3k for a recoverable 31k and have a possible F2 coming for about the same money which I think is realistic.
Has any one here paid big money for an RD?
Did you think it was worth it???
J
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Post by tony2stroke on May 24, 2022 18:11:52 GMT 1
Kind of wondering how much longer the current bubble of insane prices for strokers will last. Surely the days of circa £20k for a 500 and £9k plus for an LC just can’t continue? I just paid £3k for a recoverable 31k and have a possible F2 coming for about the same money which I think is realistic. Has any one here paid big money for an RD? Did you think it was worth it??? J Just think of it this way, you just payed £3K for a recoverable 31K, most likely cost you 3 or 4K to to make mint, engine re-build £1500 ish all in, more if you have to pay someone else to do it for you, which many do, another £1200 plus for a paint job, if you can't do it yourself, then all the other little bits that add up to hundreds fast and even thousands, at the end you a nice mint looking bike for close to £8K, that's where the higher prices are coming from. No one is going to pay top money for a bike without a nice paint job and engine re-build, the bike has to look and be spot on for top money. The price of parts new and second hand have rocketed, and new parts aren't going to come down, they only go up, and second hand parts get fewer and fewer, so the price goes higher and higher as more and more people are prepared to pay more to get the part. I don't see the high priced bikes selling though, they just sit around for ages, and sometimes you see them listed month after month. |
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Post by midlifecrisisrd on May 24, 2022 18:47:27 GMT 1
You've done well getting a complete bike for 3k, that's about the minimum for a complete bike nowadays
Glad I've got most parts for another couple of hybrids stashed as couldn't justify spending £5k on a donor now
The TR750 has got out of hand though 😆
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Post by vectisitch on May 24, 2022 20:39:55 GMT 1
With the impending financial meltdown coming I do see prices dropping. No one will have spare cash to buy and some people will be forced to see to survive. Prices will be driven down
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Post by dusty350 on May 24, 2022 21:08:01 GMT 1
I agree with Tony - a lot of the really high priced bikes are stagnating on ebay, and have been for weeks/months. I think the initial rush for decent bikes, by buyers with cash to spare, and wanting to get back into Lc ownership, has been and gone, although exceptional standard bikes and trick specials still make top money - just less of an audience now I think. And Yamaha spares prices continue to climb. I'm about to embark on another Lc engine rebuild, and I hope to compare prices now against the same parts for an engine build a few years back - it will be interesting to see how much they have changed ! It's very easy to spend a LOT of money on these bikes, thanks in part to the ready supply of both genuine and excellent pattern parts, and the huge aftermarket scene. Plus we all modified them back in the day, and a lot of us still do ! It gets very expensive, very quickly. Not long back, a trick rebuild would cost 6-8k, 10 at most. Now, 10 is a minimum, and a trick rebuild is at least a couple of grand on top, often more. I personally have never paid large for any of mine - mainly coz they need rebuilding in the first place, but I have sold the last 3 bikes for 5 figure sums, just about covering my rebuild costs  Dusty |
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Post by 4l04ever on May 24, 2022 21:09:05 GMT 1
This same thread comes up every few months and has been doing so for many years.
People think that by saying the bubble will burst soon that this will cause everyone to panic and sell their bikes at bargain prices, but that does not happen either.
A few years ago people were flabbergasted when an LC cost more than £2k, then £3k, then £5k...
The prices come from the prices of the parts and services required to build a nice LC. I can't see bike prices going down while the cost to build a bike remains high.
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Post by steve h on May 24, 2022 21:16:20 GMT 1
Meltdown? I sat at the entrance to a retail park the other weekend. We both watched and took notice of the cars driving past us.... how new they were and the age of the people driving them. I find it puzzling that we keep hearing stories of how hard up pensioners are. Well....seeing that amount of new flash cars driven by old farts tells another story. Of course all pensioners are not well off, and not all pensioners have 2 pensions, as not all of them are ex civil servants or had disposable income jobs. Bangers were driven by "young people" i.e. the ones who will suffer IF there is a meltdown, and as there are not many 2t youngsters.....the high prices will continue, probably. As in any financial episode, only the poor take a nose dive...the rich just pay a bit more, no skin off their noses. I am an old fart in my 60s..... sans any wealth,  |
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Post by donkeychomp on May 24, 2022 21:35:11 GMT 1
I've been looking at the cost of my bike so far. I think I'm one of the lucky ones. A lot of the big parts (like the frame) were donated to me. Front and rear end cost peanuts compared to lets say, RGV stuff. Saying that I have just forked out a lot of dosh to get enough parts to start to rebuild the engine. That alone will probably set me back at least another £500. Paintwork? See above. When she's done (when!) I reckon to have spent about £8k and that'll be pretty cheap in todays market I think.
Alex
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Post by reedpete on May 24, 2022 22:25:06 GMT 1
As Rob says… a topic that crops up periodically…..and the Answer remains Nope… not happening anytime soon…and it’s not just LCs … anything of ‘our era’ will remain in strong demand for a good time yet… most of us aren’t even retired yet! If I was and when I am, I’ll be messing with my bikes as a primary pastime….
Will some folks be forced to sell for financial or others reasons … yes, as they already are…. But the majority of bikes are owned by enthusiasts…. So once you own an LC , what’s the motivation to sell ?
You only have to look at how difficult it is to find a project, a frame or anything related to see there is huge demand… of course the speculators on eBay have and have always had bikes for sale priced to shine not sell….. but often that’s for usually sales tactics… but that’s also always been the case…. There's always been ‘overpriced’ bikes sat on eBay…. But I’m sure if you tracked those ceiling prices you see they have crept up too.
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Post by Robbieben on May 25, 2022 7:59:31 GMT 1
Earlier this year I bought a dropped 2007 GSX1400 FE from the owner, I paid £500.00 for the bike, it cost me £1500.00 for parts and paint and around 120 hours to put back into pristine condition and sold easily at £6500.00, I had over 40 phone calls about the bike. The second person to ring bought the bike and never argued about the price. A cult bike in high demand???
I bought my 31K for £3250.00 last year as it stood, not pretty but it was a runner, when its finished I will ave over £10,000 invested in it, it's going to become a hybrid 485cc using Norbo's billet engine cases etc. Lots of work/hours will go into it which you can't ever recoup, those that can't do these rebuilds themselves and pay £40.00 or more per hour for builders time and expertise will never recoup their money, its more of a love affair with the bike, you know its going to be expensive but you still do it anyway.
My GT750B rebuild including purchasing the bike cost me £10k, I've been offered £18.5k on two occasions for it by people desperate for one but can't do the work themselves and they know paying a specialist will cost over £20k plus the purchase price of the bike they choose, thats where we are now for a nicely built fully restored GT750.
Will prices change? In my opinion not for another 10 years and I firmly believe they will continue to steadily creep up.
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Post by steve63 on May 25, 2022 12:56:23 GMT 1
Meltdown? I sat at the entrance to a retail park the other weekend. We both watched and took notice of the cars driving past us.... how new they were and the age of the people driving them. I find it puzzling that we keep hearing stories of how hard up pensioners are. Well....seeing that amount of new flash cars driven by old farts tells another story. Of course all pensioners are not well off, and not all pensioners have 2 pensions, as not all of them are ex civil servants or had disposable income jobs. Bangers were driven by "young people" i.e. the ones who will suffer IF there is a meltdown, and as there are not many 2t youngsters.....the high prices will continue, probably. As in any financial episode, only the poor take a nose dive...the rich just pay a bit more, no skin off their noses. I am an old fart in my 60s..... sans any wealth,  I used to say to my old man that the pensioners are the only ones with money Thats why bungalows are so expensive, too may wrinklies with loads of money who can't go upstairs  The age of most jobs coming with a pension is gone never mind a good one. Most of my uncles and my Dad retired from long time jobs with good pensions. Not civil service/government jobs just engineering companies. More and more of those type of companies, if they exist have stripped pensions away to save money. Not to mention sick pay and anything else they might consider extras. Unless you are working for the government or a company that cares about it's public face then you are on your own now. |
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Post by steve h on May 25, 2022 19:32:06 GMT 1
They "employ" agency workers now...I know...Ive spent 2 decades with engineering companies via agencies. "Your holiday pay is included in your hourly rate" If you get sick you get sacked (replaced). "And dont have a week off for the TT as someone else will be doing your job when you get back". Still...bought a mint very low miles 250LC while I was at my last work place..... for peanuts...whilst earning peanuts. It is my pension.
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Post by 4l04ever on May 25, 2022 21:56:14 GMT 1
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Post by veg on May 25, 2022 22:04:05 GMT 1
What’s most shocking about those posts Rob is in 2016 we were moaning about spending £3 k on mint low miles imports. 😁
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Post by reedpete on May 25, 2022 22:22:58 GMT 1
What’s most shocking about those posts Rob is in 2016 we were moaning about spending £3 k on mint low miles imports. 😁 In five years time we can add this thread to that list ! |
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Post by steve h on May 25, 2022 22:54:18 GMT 1
In five years time there may be nobody around...
What has been staggering on the "pricing" of 2t's, was the jump in such a short time
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Post by JonW on May 26, 2022 1:23:23 GMT 1
Ive just been reading a book* about helping sort out personal finance (probably should have read this years ago, hmmm...) and in one section it talked about buying a house and how there are always articles in the news that fortell of a crash in prices to partner any stories about rises, along with stories of impending recession. It suggested that these articles exist only as they are so readily lapped up by those who want/need it to happen as they are not on the property rollercoaster. It was an interesting point. There is supply and demand in the story world as well as the physical. Don't believe everything you read for sure, know what journalism to trust etc.
* - 'The Barefoot Investor' if anyone is keen to have a read, its light n easy reading for what it is and pretty Aussie but still works for other countries as its a 'strategy' and not onerous to do some of it etc.
Back to bikes... I do think its interesting about the rapid jump (especially in the UK) and also the fact the market went up during Covid, when most people expected it to go down. Funny world and an event we hadnt seen in modern times. Many factors there, probably not repeatable with Monkey Pox etc.
What i find interesting is that living in a country with a small population tucked at the bottom of the world is that to own and build up a hobby with our bikes Ive needed to understand each of the markets around the world more so than those who have a big market locally. From here I keep a watching brief worldwide not least as there are almost no parts in our tiny market and I have to buy from abroad, which means my restos cost a bomb in post if nothing else.
I can see today that that the UK has the most expensive prices of bikes and parts, but it wasnt always thus. The USA was really cheap 10 years back but has seen massive RZ price prises the past 5-7 years and even the Canadians cottoned on and they started to climb more recently as well. Germany (and other EUs) started to be raided for the rising UK market and their prices increased (demand led) and in Asia things were on a slower climb depending on the country, which are all very different financially, Id think mostly for the '30 year rule' of classics.
Of course its all supply and demand. In the US and Canada at least these bikes were seen as budget fun (and a strange choice) for longer, plus most modern bike buyers had no idea they existed. Youtube helped awareness as did the 30 year rule etc. Add in the fact that bikers in general in the USA are not seen in the same light as a some other places so the 2T market is a really tiny subset in a smaller market inside a an even smaller part of a larger (although still small market) than you might imagine if youre from say the UK. Confusing? ok, try this... Road 2Ts, within 2Ts in general, within old bikes, within Japanese bikes, within biking in general... across the various state rules. Seeing/owning/riding an RZ in California is unlikely to say the least...
Country values are also not helped with Yamaha's global pricing structure on parts.
Eg, An RZ/Banshee shift shaft (2GU-18101) costs £100 in the UK, but elsewhere:
- USA $54 (£30)
- NL - Euro 94 (£80)
- Aus - A$90 ($50)
... and probably less in Asia.
Why is that? mainly its how big companies work. They put on a local market uplift or discount based on 'what the market will stand'. Rightly or wrongly. I make no judgements but most things you buy from all global players are priced like this, check out the Big Mac index (yes its a thing lol). Also this is a part shared with the banshee which is an ATV used by people who dont live in cities and work high end jobs (generalisation, but you get what im saying in sure) and as such prices for that machines parts is lower so they are affordable.
Back to bikes... I'm no seer (its been said before, tho Ive not actually checked if i was right or wrong on stuff ive said before - im just chatting here - Hey, get us another pint will you?) but I do see small drops but its a supply and demand market, so long as there isnt a glut of sales then the prices will remain high... until we old duffers all sell up and move into sheltered accomodation.
I believe that nice bikes (and 500s) will always be worth top dollar, but slow to sell as the buyers arent often monied up. And those who arent monied prop up the lower end of the market, so the others that will be worth money are projects - almost everyone overvalues a project, thinking they can do something clever that no one else has done lol. We have all been guilty and come a cropper with this over the years, i know i have... The ones that i see dropping are usable runners, that tier above project but not a (silver zinc) nut n (green) bolt resto with lots of NOS. Thats where the sweet spot has always been i reckon and I know others play in this space with good results on here. Not me tho, mostly I am too skint and am always looking to start with the worst projects of all, ie. just a bare frame. Dont be like JonW kids...
Of course parts (new, old and nos) availability has a huge hand in all this. There is little point buying an LC as a frame if youve no other parts in your stash to build one, even worse if your desired project frame is a 500; less sold, always been worth good money compared to other bikes etc etc. Anyway, I think the price of parts is key to the market, yeah back to parts...
Its a 'chicken and egg' question tho... has the price of parts pushed the price of resto bikes up, or have parts gone up cos of the prices of a whole one? Or is it worse than that in that one is pushing the other, then the other pushes and then we repeat this over and over again...??
Bear in mins that a whole LC project full of both iffy and useful parts costs a lot to buy and if you are a guy who breaks them up then you need your money back plus your profit. Over time each one you buy costs more and more so the prices of the individual parts goes up and up. If all the parts become more exy then a resto bike is 'worth more' cos of what it cost to do up. Factor in price of paint and new parts from Yam and even aftermarket parts which have all had rises and the price of a bike is gathering pace like inflation...
And... oh yeah... and of course, inflation is in there too. I read that it is 9% in a year in the uk the past year; so a £10k LC last year is worth almost £11k this year just cos of the value of money. Ouch.
For most of us on here these bikes are a hobby. I never expected to make money out of my bikes. In fact most people would have told you that doing a vehicle up and spending money and then selling was a surefire way to waste cash as thats what it was like for most of my life. Certainly all those hours you spent were free labour and often the fact you fitted new/nos parts was just a bonus for the next guy and you were lucky to get out at the end for what you put in. We used to laugh at ads that said 'just want to get my money back'. We dont see those ads now... lol
Perhaps we are getting back to those days, its just the cost of everything has risen with time and demand... and covid tax, nos tax and now raging inflation.
Maybe we'll start to see ads soon for resto LCs for £20k with the 'just want to get my money back' line at the bottom of the advert?
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Post by reedpete on May 26, 2022 3:55:48 GMT 1
There’s another lens that could be looked through…
Consider LCs as a drug !
Once you are hooked you will pay whatever it takes. Often at the expense of the real priorities in life. Another bike, another part…..
It’s not difficult to get hooked… let’s face it, what easier way is there to live the dream and be 19 again….
Me, yep, hands up….on reflection I suppose Im a ‘high functioning’ addict!
I haven’t been invited to a family intervention yet as I’ve managed to find a yarn confusing enough to defer and distract… but it’s probably only time….
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Post by gra426 on May 26, 2022 10:14:12 GMT 1
My opinion for what it's worth is that there has been a bubble in demand which has driven prices up to an inflated rate. For this reason I don't think too many of the very highly priced bikes will sell unless they are very, very good. However, I don't think prices will drop hugely now because people will just keep the bikes and the market will continue to stagnate. My position is that if you said to me my bikes worth 10k I'd say wow great but it's not for sale because I love the bike, alternately if you said my bikes worth 4k I'd say so what because it's not for sale because I live the bike.
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Post by dougw on May 26, 2022 10:35:45 GMT 1
There’s another lens that could be looked through… Consider LCs as a drug ! Once you are hooked you will pay whatever it takes. Often at the expense of the real priorities in life. Another bike, another part….. It’s not difficult to get hooked… let’s face it, what easier way is there to live the dream and be 19 again…. Me, yep, hands up….on reflection I suppose Im a ‘high functioning’ addict! I haven’t been invited to a family intervention yet as I’ve managed to find a yarn confusing enough to defer and distract… but it’s probably only time…. Managed to deflect my other half this morning when she asked how much the rebores, new short deck height pistons, head machining, cylinder porting , PV bushes for the long stroke long rod YPVS390 that Mutts is doing is going to cost. I never add up how much I spend on the bikes. Suffice to say, having had reasonably well paid jobs in engineering since I left college in 1986, I wouldn`t be living in a semi detached house and driving a 24 year old car if I wasn`t hooked on bikes. |
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Post by steve63 on May 26, 2022 13:03:48 GMT 1
My personal finance advice is this: Spend slightly less than you earn.
I've passed this wisdom on to a few of the young lads at work over the years when they moan. There is another line and that goes: Your choices are: either earn more or spend less.
I remember someone not too long ago, maybe 5 or 6 years ago, telling me they got £4,500 for their 350LC, UK etc, etc. It was an offer they couldn't turn down. I remember thinking, wow, that's a lot of money.
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Post by shaunthe2nd on May 26, 2022 13:23:58 GMT 1
My personal finance advice is this: Spend slightly less than you earn. I've passed this wisdom on to a few of the young lads at work over the years when they moan. There is another line and that goes: Your choices are: either earn more or spend less. I remember someone not too long ago, maybe 5 or 6 years ago, telling me they got £4,500 for their 350LC, UK etc, etc. It was an offer they couldn't turn down. I remember thinking, wow, that's a lot of money. My economics teacher said to me 'save £1000 before you spend £1000 and you will never be in debt'. He meant don't do it the other way round as you are always in debt. I took him literally and actually did save £1000, I remember proudly seeing it in my bank account. I then went and blew it on a motorbike, but that bike was all mine. I have lived by that mantra since. |
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Post by bare on May 26, 2022 17:27:49 GMT 1
Debate /concern Still continues I see.
IMO the Pricings are basically... UK prices.
Seems Most of the rest of the world is ambivalent to these.
Summer prior to Covid I sold an 82 350LC (Complete and Unbuggered :-) albeit partially disassembled, for 800$ (Note Not gbps) and happy to get it.
Wanted get that albatross out of my garage.
Still have a good matching numbers LC even with a couple spare sets of 2nd overbore cyls in boxes.
Destined to be thrown out with the trash by my Heirs :-)
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Post by donkeychomp on May 26, 2022 21:07:11 GMT 1
Chicken is the answer Jon.
Alex
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Post by steve h on May 26, 2022 21:59:06 GMT 1
All above is immaterial if cancer gets you. Enjoy and spend your cash...even if you think paying 12k for an un matching numbers money pit is a bit over the top... Fill your boots, I would but they are full of holes, holes that I have worn into them by searching for a pot to piss in. (Sold the last pot because I didn't have a pot to piss in at the time) I expect to see a few more jems in the rebuild section featuring 4 bangers  |
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Post by tony2stroke on May 26, 2022 23:14:30 GMT 1
All above is immaterial if cancer gets you. Enjoy and spend your cash...even if you think paying 12k for an un matching numbers money pit is a bit over the top... Fill your boots, I would but they are full of holes, holes that I have worn into them by searching for a pot to piss in. (Sold the last pot because I didn't have a pot to piss in at the time) I expect to see a few more jems in the rebuild section featuring 4 bangers  Yes! enjoy what you can while you can, you never know what's round the corner, your life can change in an instant for all sorts of reasons. There are no pockets in a shroud. |
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Post by tony2stroke on May 26, 2022 23:20:01 GMT 1
Debate /concern Still continues I see. IMO the Pricings are basically... UK prices. Seems Most of the rest of the world is ambivalent to these. Summer prior to Covid I sold an 82 350LC (Complete and Unbuggered :-) albeit partially disassembled, for 800$ (Note Not gbps) and happy to get it. Wanted get that albatross out of my garage. Still have a good matching numbers LC even with a couple spare sets of 2nd overbore cyls in boxes. Destined to be thrown out with the trash by my Heirs :-) There are German and Australian sellers punting stuff to UK buyers on ebay now, at high UK prices and then the crippling shipping. The Japanese are buying stuff from UK, at high UK prices, plus high shipping. |
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Post by JonW on May 27, 2022 5:11:16 GMT 1
Debate /concern Still continues I see. IMO the Pricings are basically... UK prices. Seems Most of the rest of the world is ambivalent to these. Summer prior to Covid I sold an 82 350LC (Complete and Unbuggered :-) albeit partially disassembled, for 800$ (Note Not gbps) and happy to get it. Wanted get that albatross out of my garage. Still have a good matching numbers LC even with a couple spare sets of 2nd overbore cyls in boxes. Destined to be thrown out with the trash by my Heirs :-) There are German and Australian sellers punting stuff to UK buyers on ebay now, at high UK prices and then the crippling shipping. The Japanese are buying stuff from UK, at high UK prices, plus high shipping. Supply and Demand at work there for sure. |
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Post by steve63 on May 28, 2022 8:46:36 GMT 1
All above is immaterial if cancer gets you. Enjoy and spend your cash...even if you think paying 12k for an un matching numbers money pit is a bit over the top... Fill your boots, I would but they are full of holes, holes that I have worn into them by searching for a pot to piss in. (Sold the last pot because I didn't have a pot to piss in at the time) I expect to see a few more jems in the rebuild section featuring 4 bangers Yes! enjoy what you can while you can, you never know what's round the corner, your life can change in an instant for all sorts of reasons. There are no pockets in a shroud. A client of ours put it this way. None of us are promised tomorrow. I live everyday as if it's my last, I stay in bed on a drip full of strong drugs 😁 |
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Post by steve63 on May 28, 2022 8:48:32 GMT 1
All above is immaterial if cancer gets you. Enjoy and spend your cash...even if you think paying 12k for an un matching numbers money pit is a bit over the top... Fill your boots, I would but they are full of holes, holes that I have worn into them by searching for a pot to piss in. (Sold the last pot because I didn't have a pot to piss in at the time) I expect to see a few more jems in the rebuild section featuring 4 bangers Funny you should say that. My new gem is being delivered today. I couldn't sleep last night 😊 |
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