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Post by drc on Sept 23, 2021 20:49:02 GMT 1
I'm not sure where to post this but I will start a build thread once I get into it. I got this from a local frame builder. The owner of the company died recently, and his partner took over and was having a bit of a clear-out. He made the tank for someone else, but the guy ended up not coming back for it and it was sitting on a shelf. The tank was built around an R6 front end and a TZ250 seat It’s a 76 RD400 frame with a mono-shock mount already welded into it and it currently has a LC swingarm although it’s supposed to take a TZ arm as well. It was never registered for the road anywhere in Canada or the US although it does have a North American VIN so I had to jump through hoops to get an ownership for it, but its sorted now. There is also not a spot of rust on the frame and its the original paint which also leads me to also believe it was never on the road. It may have been a race bike though I’m trying to decide what to do with it. I think a Metmachex arm would look really nice in there and for a seat I was thinking either a early TZ250 or a Ducktail. I don’t want the wheels to be too wide. I can get a complete RG125 F front end or a set of 31k forks in a FZR250 triple that have been bored for the RG125 wheel and axle. I’ll try them both but I’m leaning towards a conventional fork. I’m just wondering if its possible to get a RG125 F rear wheel into the LC swingarm? Has anyone ever done this swap or does anyone know the distance between the swingarm legs on a RG125? The other option may be wheels and a front end from a 2MA. I have a 350LC motor that holed a piston and I was going to sell it but I think it may look nice in this build. I also like the 400 air-cooled motor but they are so hard to find here. I'd have to get some engine mounts sorted out but I've been reading Dusty's thread and there are some really good ideas in there. I also like the cross-over Tyga pipes for the 350LC but that is step 199 and I’m on step 2 at the moment.
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Post by dusty350 on Sept 23, 2021 21:37:13 GMT 1
Oooh, nice, very much my kinda build The big decision is whether you want a race bike a like, or a Cafe racer loosely based around a race tank and seat, which is what I went for. The tank and seat combo will be the biggest influence of course when looking at the bike. I think rwu forks suit the overall look the best and are more "period" with the bodywork. I dont think you need spokeys unless you go race bike, and I really like the Rgv wheels on mine. Rgv Vj21 front end will go straight in with the spacer under the headstock bearing but the rear wheel will be an issue in an Lc arm, but if you go with a Metmachex that wont be a problem. I would love to build another, and ideally around an aircooled engine as I think they look great with the big finned engine fitted under the alloy tank - if I could have found a 400 motor when I first got the project, that's what I would have fitted preferably. Aircooled means you wont have fabrication to get done for the engine mounts, which was a fair bit of work. I wanted mine to look like it hadn't just had a race seat plonked on top of the frame - there are lots that have been done in the past and I always hate seeing the square ish frame sections visible below the race seats that get fitted but that's me !! The Lc motor would work very well too, and the fact you already have one is a big plus - rad mounts would be an easy addition, and electrics would be as simple as an aircooled's. I often think about doing another - I have a spare alloy tank in the shed - it's just the donor bikes are so stupidly expensive over here that stops me doing it. You've got a great start for an awesome build Look forward to your progress Dusty
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Post by veg on Sept 23, 2021 21:46:41 GMT 1
That will be so cool, I prefer rwu and also I’m a big fan of spoke wheels, I’m waiting to get my garage done as I’ve an ac frame and was going to use an ac bottom end but I’m veering towards an Lc engine, so I’ll be moving my ac bottom end on. dustys build has certainly helped in my decision process. All I’d say when you start is pop a build thread in the build section. I’ll be watching it with interest. Good luck.
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Post by dusty350 on Sept 23, 2021 22:02:28 GMT 1
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Post by drc on Sept 23, 2021 22:44:28 GMT 1
Thanks for the comments and pictures guys.They do look good with the air-cooled motor. It just seems to fill up the space nicely. Spokes do look nice though
Its definitely going to be for the street so more of a cafe racer built around the tank and frame
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Post by drc on Nov 16, 2021 15:32:12 GMT 1
So I think I'm about ready to make a start on this. I decided to go with the Ducktail so I just ordered one from Airtech I also mocked up the LC motor in the frame but it looks small. I still haven't ruled it out but I picked these up at the weekend. There are basically 4 complete motors here.
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Post by dusty350 on Nov 17, 2021 8:43:50 GMT 1
Looks like you had a great score there I agree, the aircooled motor fills the space below the tank perfectly, and also means you can leave the engine mounts alone, saving time and money. Really look forward to your progress Dusty
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Post by reedpete on Nov 17, 2021 16:57:51 GMT 1
Engines are like that….none come along and then you find four !
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Post by shaunthe2nd on Nov 17, 2021 17:16:13 GMT 1
8 cylinder engine would be novel. Or maybe twin engined. You have a few options with 4 engines/1 frame. Can't wait to see it.
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Post by drc on Nov 17, 2021 21:51:06 GMT 1
Thanks all. Mmmmmm... twin engined.
Its 3 Daytona motors and one RD400C motor. I'll get one good motor built and then pass the rest of the parts on. Its better to see them being used than lying in the corner of my shed. I just ordered a set of rod kits. I also need to order some parts from PJME so I'll get a set of crank bearings at the same time.
I'm wondering if anyone has any suggestions for pipes (Mutt's, Kenny?). I used to own a couple of 250's but have never rode a 400. I understand its quite a torquey motor and is quite nice for the street so I'd like to try and keep it like that.
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Post by dusty350 on Nov 17, 2021 22:56:29 GMT 1
Kopite was selling some of Dave's/Alonze pipes for an aircooled fairly recently. Dont now if he sold them ? Might be worth an ask Dusty
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Post by dusty350 on Nov 17, 2021 23:11:00 GMT 1
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Post by sidney81 on Nov 18, 2021 8:05:00 GMT 1
Great project 👍
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Post by mick858 on Nov 18, 2021 9:26:26 GMT 1
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Post by drc on Nov 18, 2021 17:12:20 GMT 1
I googled some pictures of the Alonze pipes and they do look nice. I'll reach out to Kopite.
I was also thinking about a set of small can Allspeeds but when I google pictures of them on the RD400 it looks like there is a massive gap between the pipes and the bottom of the frame.
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Post by dusty350 on Nov 18, 2021 19:45:59 GMT 1
Interesting what you say about the Allspeed fitment. A mate of mine has a 250d with Allspeeds fitted - bought new by him less than 2 years ago, and they definitely dont kick up as high as mine do at the back ? Not sure why they are different. The gap below the frame rails is possibly to allow the fitment of the centre stand, hence they dont sit tight to the frame rails like pipes designed for side stand only. I'm really pleased with my Allspeeds, bought last year - "E" spec pipes but with the brackets welded on for C/D fitment; 20210608_093807 by dusty miller, on Flickr They are not gonna add much in the way of extra bhp, but they look and sound awesome. If you are building a Td/Tz style bike, they possibly wont look "race bike" pipe enough, if you know what I mean. You would be better off with something like Dave/Alonze have designed; 20210320_115205 by dusty miller, on Flickr Lighter, stainless, cheaper than Allspeeds with a much shorter waiting time, and superior performance gains over the 'speeds, and just look more in keeping in my opinion. I had to rethink the side stand bracket but these are pipes for a Pv, so weren't designed for the Ac frame - you wont have that issue Hope the pics help Dusty
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Post by drc on Nov 18, 2021 20:49:29 GMT 1
Those look way better. This was the picture I was looking at. I see what you mean when you say that your are more upswept
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Post by Mr Kipling on Nov 19, 2021 19:05:56 GMT 1
Nice project look forward too reading more....
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Post by drc on Dec 22, 2021 20:13:20 GMT 1
Well, things are slowly starting to roll in. Got the seat with the upholstery pan from Airtech so tried a little mock up. The Swingarm came off the LC350 and thats a Suzuki wheel and with a 17x140 tire. Need to get the motor in and check the chain alignment with a rear sprocket but the same wheel and sprocket on my 4L0 just needed a 6mm offset front speocket so I think the RD is the same. The top loop on the arm is a little wide and I can only get about 3 inches of travel. but I'm cutting the shock mounts and plates off the frame so I can widen the frame tubes at the rear at the same time. I just need to cut them off a little lower I'm glad I went with the Ducktail. I was thinking about a TZ A or B seat but I'm well pleased with this. I also many need a shorter shock. I'll have to see what its like with the forks. (or maybe its just the angle of the picture. If I pull the bottom frame rails out they line up with the center of the axle which is similar to Dusty's above) Sorry about the quality of the picture. I don't know what happened with my phone.
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Post by dusty350 on Dec 22, 2021 21:18:54 GMT 1
Looking really good already Depending on what rear wheel set up you decide on will affect chain run. I used Vj22 in my 400, and Vj21 in the Cafe bike. Both frames were "pocketed" so the chain would clear the tubes, above and below the swingarm pivot. It only just needs it to be honest, and you may even get away with not doing it at all, but I did it as a "belt and braces" exercise whilst other mods were being done. The Rgv sprocket carrier wont safely take a skim so you cant mod that to bring the rear sprocket inboard - other sprocket carriers with more metal on them will fit - Steve will know which ones as I cant remember at the mo. You may need a longer rear shock if going with a 17" wheel at the rear - got an 18" Rgv in my cafe bike, but a 17" in the 400, and the 400 had YSS length adjustable shocks fitted with the max 5mm longer setting, and it still needed more as it looked squat otherwise. I had length adjusters made to improve ride height - easily done by someone with a lathe and knowhow. Again, you need to check with your final set up before making that decision. And you'll need a chain slipper on your Metmachex coz the chain will try and saw it's way through otherwise. Again, easily made from a chopping board, nicked out of the kitchen !! Dusty
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Post by drc on Dec 22, 2021 22:07:38 GMT 1
Thanks Dusty. I'll get some pictures with the sprocket in. I'm hoping it will be fine without notching the frame as it cleared the LC. Its a bandit wheel so I think its a little narrower at the hub than the RGV. Its a lot heavier than the RGV wheel though. I have the standard 4L0 shock in it at the moment, but I have a 320mm YSS that came from my sons GPZ550 that has the adjustment on it so I'm hoping that will fit. According to the YSS spec sheet the GPZ shock is a MZ366-320TR and the standard spring is a 185. They recommend a MZ366-315TR for the LC with a 185 spring so it should be 5mm longer with +/-5 adjustment. The bushings are bigger in the LC but they sell those separate. It would be nice to be able to reuse that shock as I had to swap it when we put 17" wheels on the GPZ and everything scraped on the ground Just dropped the cases off for vapour blasting today and the crank is being rebuild. Waiting on a set of pistons but they are sitting in customs. As soon as they come in I can get the cylinders done and then the combustion chambers are up once I can measure the squish.
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Post by dusty350 on Dec 22, 2021 22:22:28 GMT 1
A narrower rear hub will be a good thing. It is close with the Rgv set up, but by no means a given that you would have to pocket the frame, so the Bandit wheel may well save you a lot of messing. Shock sounds perfect for length and adjustment range Look forward to your progress Dusty
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Post by drc on Dec 29, 2021 16:31:13 GMT 1
Final piece of the subframe complete. The top loop on the Swing Arm was really wide as it was originally on a 4L0 which has about 9 inches between the rear tubes and only tapers in at the top. The RD400 is the opposite and tapers in at the bottom and so there is only 6 inches between the tubes where the swing arm upper loop is located so I only had 2.5 inches of travel. The rear tubes had to be replaced with tubes that have the same spacing as the 4L0. It now has 4.25 inches of travel with the standard LC shock and I should be able to pick up a little more with the longer 320mm shock. According to the manual the 4L0 has 3.9 inches of rear wheel travel so it should be enough. All the new tubes were spiggoted and pinned to the old frame and are all 4130 chromoly which is probably overkill but that's all the fabricator uses. Still need to add 2 more saddles where the tubes meet at the swingarm pivot but I need to make the rearsets first as I have no idea how the rear master cylinder will be mounted yet. There will also be a 1/8 alloy plate going below the seat to give the fibreglass some additional support. There is enough room behind the seat hump for a 4 cell Anti Gravity battery (or maybe a battery eliminator although I was thinking about using a Zeel so will need a battery), CDI and fuse box. I may end up mounting the rectifier under the seat as there is a couple of inches to hide it and it should cool better. I like how the seat looks like it is floating in mid air. I wish I could take credit for the fabrication work but it was done by a local frame builder here in Ontario who specializes in complete frames for Vintage and Classic Race Bikes. They used to be called CMR but have just rebranded the company to Cox Custom Fabrications. I just wanted to give them a plug (hopefully that's OK) as they do some really nice stuff and have been really helpful. Here is one of their XR69 frames for FJ1200 and GS1000/1100 motors. Most of the XR69 and TZ750 frames used by Team USA for the Island Classic Races are made by them including the one Jason Pridmore crashed which apparently survived.
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Post by drc on Jan 14, 2022 23:32:48 GMT 1
Picked up another couple of pieces this afternoon. The cases have been vapour blasted and came up really nice - Sorry about the quality of the pictures. I had to take them in the shed and it was getting dark - Hoping the crank will be done next week. Next thing will be new bushes and a set of stainless engine mounts from Norbo I also picked these up from someone from the CVMG. They are off a 1991 GSF400. The chrome is really nice and they are straight so I'm going to mock it up with these. They are off a North American model so they had a single 310mm disk but I think if I use a bluespot with that disk the brakes will still be better than anything the the RD originally had. I just happen to have a lefthand one as well. I'll have to see what it looks like with one disk but it will be period correct. The forks are also about 1 1/2 inches longer than the standard RD forks so that would give me the option of mounting the clipon's above the top yoke - which is maybe not a bad thing for an old person - otherwise I can get them shortened. It looks like it will need a 5mm spacer to fit the RD frame and the steering stops will have to be modified. I'll also have to remove the handlebar clamps which will require welding in 2 small plates on the yoke, or I could just try to find a top yoke from a later model that had clipons. I actually quite like them. They are 41mm so look quite beefy but are still quite narrow from the front as the fork centers are only 185mm. I'm really not keen on the GSF400 mudguard though. I'm thinking about a GS500 or RGV one if they will fit.
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Post by dusty350 on Jan 15, 2022 8:53:00 GMT 1
Looking great so far I think those forks will suit the look of the bike perfectly - USD's wouldn't be the right "look" for that build. My Rgv RWU forks on the Cafe bike are 41mm too, and I think they are the perfect compromise on these builds. Bikes from that period often only had one disc, so if you are going for visually "correct", than that will be right, plus, as you say, you will outbrake an original set up Engine cases look lovely. I look forward to the engine build - one of my favourite parts of any resto. Regards clip ons - there are lots of options on ebay. I looked at various different billet sets, and you can get a pair that will fit below the top yoke but have a 1" rise, so bringing up that bit more to save your lumbar spine !! In the end I used the Vj21 yokes and bars, which also have the 1" rise as standard; 20180729_124027 by dusty miller, on Flickr 20181011_140632 by dusty miller, on Flickr Again, a good compromise between period look, and usability. Not all those on offer on ebay are Chinese, so you can get something that will look great and be safe ! The fact you will sit lower on the bike due to the seat will lessen the strain on your wrists and back too. I saw a pic of a Cafe build with a tank like yours and "normal" bars - like on a standard Rd, and it just didn't look right to me. I love what you are doing. I would love to do another at some point as I think they look sooo uber cool Look forward to your progress. Dusty
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Post by drc on Jan 16, 2022 15:25:44 GMT 1
Dusty. Just out of interest, what’s the distance between the fork centres on the RGV. I think the RGV muddy will be too wide but the GS will fit.
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Post by dusty350 on Jan 16, 2022 15:47:36 GMT 1
190mm between centres on the Vj21 forks Dusty
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Post by drc on Jan 16, 2022 16:03:10 GMT 1
That will work. I thought they were much wider
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Post by dusty350 on Jan 16, 2022 16:19:43 GMT 1
VJ22, Upside downers are 200mm. Both sets measured from the centres of the adjuster bolt on top
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Post by dusty350 on Jan 16, 2022 16:28:47 GMT 1
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