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Post by Bakker RD on Oct 24, 2020 17:31:07 GMT 1
Today I had my Bakker RD on the dyno at PS tuning in Geldermalsen. 73PS at 11000rpm. Not bad for a 35 year old bike. However from Pieter, the owner of PS tuning, I received some homework to make the bike even better and one of the tasks I got was to replace the stock YPVS 31K radiator with a better (read: bigger) one.
Are there any plug&play upgrades on the market? I see Chinese radiators being offered for about 80euro but am uncertain if these often crude looking aluminum radiators are better than a OEM stock one.
In my fairing I have 2" extra clearance on either side so it can be a bit wider than a stock rad. I prefer stock brackets and water connections.
Cheers,
William
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Post by dusty350 on Oct 24, 2020 17:36:58 GMT 1
Check out Norbo's shop at the top of the page. He sells bigger rads for Pv's. I had one years back and it was good quality and well made. I've also had Chinese rads from Ebay, and been lucky with the fit. Not all are good though and some guys have trouble getting them to fit the frame or getting the rad cover to fit properly. Chinese rads tend to be a lottery - the better quality, more expensive rads aren't so much. Dusty  |
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Post by midlifecrisisrd on Oct 24, 2020 18:01:38 GMT 1
I've tried Chinese rads a quality one from MBD
Chinese one £60, quality one £300
The cheap ones look crude compared to the "proper" ones
Personally for a high power bike I'd spend more and get the good one
The fins on the cheap ones are not as fine or tightly packed so I would question them being as efficient
Steve
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Post by dusty350 on Oct 24, 2020 18:31:57 GMT 1
I do agree. I've had GMX rads from Martin at Madbiker, and the difference in quality compared to the Chinese rads is "night and day". I think GMX rads are well worth the money, just depends on if you have the funds  Dusty |
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Post by bare on Oct 24, 2020 21:10:14 GMT 1
LC 350 rad is of Bigger capacity than the Valvie one (twin row vs the valvies' single row :-)
Iffy ..finding an affordable Good one tho.
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Post by Tobyjugs on Oct 24, 2020 21:39:59 GMT 1
LC 350 rad is of Bigger capacity than the Valvie one (twin row vs the valvies' single row :-) Iffy ..finding an affordable Good one tho. Plus it not plug and play. The old aluminium could be difficult to weld due to contamination. Also I'm not so sure about the tightly packed radiator matrix. I have a GMX radiator which don't work so good until you are moving at a good pace. I compare it to a radiator from Norbo which is a bit agricultural in the looks department (less dense matrix) but works very good especially when tootling around. |
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Post by Bakker RD on Oct 25, 2020 9:28:03 GMT 1
As I have two inches of clearance on either side of the YPVS rad I can go wider. Maybe some specialist can widen the OEM rad and retain the pressed top and bottom caps.
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Post by jon on Oct 25, 2020 10:42:18 GMT 1
I bought a larger (deeper) one for my YPVS from Legends.
I suspect they just buy them from China anyway?
Fit would have been fine for a naked model, but mines an F2.
The bottom tube runs so close to the frame bracket you couldn’t get the screw for the middle panel in. The tube is in the 9 o’clock position compared to the rad, and it should be more like 8 o’clock.
Got it cut off and welded in the correct position. Extra expense and hassle.
That said it seems to work fine and doesn’t leak. Fingers crossed as to how it fairs long term.
Jon
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Post by dusty350 on Oct 25, 2020 11:10:09 GMT 1
This is a GMX rad for an Lc;  20190425_191807 by dusty miller, on Flickr I got it from Martin at Madbiker, and asked for the overflow pipe (pv engine) to be welded on the right side, as in the pic, as opposed to centrally, which he was happy to get done for me. Worth going to him with the spec you need Dusty |
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Post by chrisg on Oct 25, 2020 15:37:25 GMT 1
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Post by Bakker RD on Oct 25, 2020 20:49:04 GMT 1
A quick Google search shows that unfortunately Redline Wetter does quite not do what it promises to do.
Back to the original plan.
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Post by Tobyjugs on Oct 25, 2020 22:00:43 GMT 1
Hi Willem if you don't like the Chinese radiators contact Hartgers radiateuren in Zutphen I think they have made radiators for a few Freetech racers.
Your design would be simple for them.
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Post by Bakker RD on Oct 26, 2020 16:45:45 GMT 1
Hi Tony,
I placed an order at Hartgers. Nice guy and his work is impressive judging by the pictures on his website. He will make a copy of the YPVS rad but 4cm wider on each side. He will use a 30mm thick core. Doubling the OEM rad. Price about 300euros.
Thanks for this contact.
William
PS will post a picture when it arrives
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Post by Bakker RD on Nov 12, 2020 22:08:14 GMT 1
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Post by Bakker RD on Nov 20, 2020 16:07:02 GMT 1
Today I tried the bigger rad for the first time. Ambient temperature was about 13 deg C and after a 6km town ride and one full throttle blast the head temperature measured with the infrared handheld scanner was 80deg. The radiator measured aprox 55 deg C.
I was told by Pieter of PS tuning that the ideal temperature measured on the head would be 65 deg C.
Any suggestions on what might be wrong? If something is wrong that is.
William
PS:When filling up the system I was able to add about 1.4 liters of coolant. What is the stock radiator capacity?
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Post by midlifecrisisrd on Nov 20, 2020 16:22:03 GMT 1
Out of interest what are the inlet and outlet temps on the radiator?
Steve
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Post by Bakker RD on Nov 20, 2020 18:10:56 GMT 1
Haven't measured them. What is in and what is out?
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Post by midlifecrisisrd on Nov 20, 2020 18:48:04 GMT 1
Think it's in at the top and out at the bottom
Just curious what the temp of the water leaving the head and how much heat it loses in the radiator
Steve
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Post by Tobyjugs on Nov 20, 2020 18:53:33 GMT 1
Hi Willem where did you measure 80deg?
If you have a thermostat in the cylinder head take it out. Try to measure the on the the cover of the water pump, not the plastic outer cover and the front top part of the cylinder head.
If you are using an infrared thermal sensor it can give a false reading on shiny aluminium.
You should have a very small difference between the two measured points without the thermostat. If it is a large reading inspect the water pump.
Also check that there is no air trapped in the system it has been posted a few times on this forum that the system can be difficult to de aerate.
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Post by Bakker RD on Nov 25, 2020 19:55:30 GMT 1
After some carburation issues. See the "RD with starvation issues" post, I was finally able to do a test ride and measure the temperatures. Head between 75 and 82 deg depending were you measure. Inlet section of the rad (top) 60 deg. Outlet temp, bottom 30 deg.
What does this say?
Cheers,
william
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Post by midlifecrisisrd on Nov 25, 2020 20:43:34 GMT 1
My first reaction is surprise at the 30 degree drop across the radiator
Steve
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Post by Bakker RD on Nov 25, 2020 21:26:58 GMT 1
High or low?
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Post by Bakker RD on Nov 25, 2020 21:29:30 GMT 1
My Rd has a Motometer with a captive tube (a very special and rare instrument) but unfortunately it massively overreads. The infrared tool is the only thing I have which will give a reasonably accurate figure
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Post by midlifecrisisrd on Nov 25, 2020 21:36:38 GMT 1
I thought the difference would be less Like say 60 at top, 40 at the bottom Steve |
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Post by Tobyjugs on Nov 25, 2020 22:31:36 GMT 1
The temperature difference is too big. You do not have enough flow over the system. As mentioned previously the infra red tool can give false readings on shiny surfaces. Also it is best to do this with the thermostat removed if you have one fitted. If you followed these rules mentioned above, the engine below 7000 rpm you should have 3 degree difference and above you should have around 1 degree difference.
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Post by midlifecrisisrd on Nov 25, 2020 23:28:02 GMT 1
That's a lot smaller drop than I thought
I did think it was staying in the rad too long
Suppose the thing to remember from this is as well as losing 30 degrees across the rad it has a 30 degree difference across the head which can't be good
Steve
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Post by Tobyjugs on Nov 25, 2020 23:40:07 GMT 1
That's a lot smaller drop than I thought I did think it was staying in the rad too long Suppose the thing to remember from this is as well as losing 30 degrees across the rad it has a 30 degree difference across the head which can't be good Steve I have been measuring the temperature differences on Kees's bike for the last two years and experimenting with different ideas so i know what Willem should expect to see if the system is in good shape without a thermostat. Thermo sensor before engine  Thermo sensor after engine  |
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Post by midlifecrisisrd on Nov 26, 2020 0:05:22 GMT 1
Really like that inlet temp sender
May stick that in a plan for the future
Steve
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2020 9:18:11 GMT 1
Think it's in at the top and out at the bottom Just curious what the temp of the water leaving the head and how much heat it loses in the radiator Yes the coolant enters the top and exits the bottom, however taking these two temperatures is not really enough to tell you if the radiator is functioning correctly, you really need more data to tell if it is A fairly simple equation is the Log Mean Temperature Difference or LMTD This is the differences between the two outlet temps minus the difference between the two inlet temps divided by log of those differences The higher the LMTD the better the radiator is performing the maximum Basically this entails at least 4 measurements of the heat exchanger or radiator if you like, the temperature of the cooling liquid going into the heat exchanger, it’s temperature coming out, the temperature of the hot liquid entering the system and it’s temperature coming out So in the case of the radiator in the motorcycle you need to know the temp of the air going in, the temp of the air coming out the back of the radiator(this is the cooling liquid) as well as the inlet and outlet temps of the coolant flowing through the radiator As we don’t have both of the air temps recorded we can’t be sure that your radiator is doing what it should do and that is removing approximately the same amount of heat that the engine is generating The more complicated method adds in the effect of the surface area of the radiator, air flow rate, coolant flow rate, the turbulence of the air and water, the type of radiator and more You can look up the full test here and the mathematics that go with it, have fun International Journal of Engineering Research & Technology (IJERT) www.ijert.org ISSN: 2278-0181 Vol. 6 Issue 06, June - 2017 In the tables they produce you will see that a drop in coolant temperature of 40c is not unreasonable for a radiator and thermostat that are working correctly, albeit they use a fan as the airflow as opposed to the motorcycle moving through the air i would say that your radiator is working very efficiently dependant on the two air temps, maybe too efficiently HTH |
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Post by marrcel on Nov 26, 2020 13:42:48 GMT 1
If you are aiming for 65degC then stick a 65 thermostat.
If your current ts is stuck it is blocking the flow. You will measure a big temp difference.
When you are leaving the ts out (with an upgraded rad) it would probably much less then 65C.
Nothing wrong with the existing temp probe. But it might be a good idea to calibrate it. Stick it in a pan with 65C water and reed your dial. 😉
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