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Post by muttsnuts on Sept 11, 2020 11:39:56 GMT 1
One of the issues with bigger power is ending up with a heavy clutch, so as usual, listening to my customers I've been working on a solution, so at great expense I've had some 8 plate clutch hubs made to test out if they will handle big power increases while retaining light clutch springs/clutch action
Initial testing has shown that the 8 plate solution can easily handle 80+bhp with stock springs, which covers most bikes/engines, I've more testing to do and I'll be looking to get a couple on extended testing to make sure they don't wear or groove
While I've yet to sort out pricing or even how many I can make/supply in a reasonable time frame, is this something people would be interested in?, clearly price is a big factor here
The only company I am aware of that do clutch hubs for 8 plate baskets are Hinson and they are extremely expensive, circa £350 after paying duties etc
Thoughts/views appreciated
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Post by 4l04ever on Sept 11, 2020 11:45:05 GMT 1
Do they fit under the standard cover?
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Post by arrow on Sept 11, 2020 11:46:42 GMT 1
Excellent work Dave.
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Post by muttsnuts on Sept 11, 2020 11:53:11 GMT 1
Do they fit under the standard cover? Hi Rob, yes that is the plan, the test bike has a modded cover on it (clear window) so I need to swap it for a stock casing at some point, but I am hoping it all fits with no mods, but I need to sort that one aspect out - I'll post up once I have done this check - as usual time is not my friend ! |
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Post by midlifecrisisrd on Sept 11, 2020 11:53:50 GMT 1
I'd certainly be interested as I've never solved mine
Yes I've seen Hinson ones and if you can get them for £350 you are doing well
Only problem I see is how they fit as heard of a few that needed filing to fit ☹
Its almost like they are made a perfect fit then the anodising process makes them too tight
If I ever got my finger out my 4rse I was going to see if I could squeeze in another plate into my Mitaka basket
Thought I may be able to steal the 3-4mm needed by a thinner thrust washer between the inner and outer basket (whatever was removed from thinner thrust washer fitted under the the tab washer) then 1mm machined off the inner basket friction face and the pressure plate friction
However if you can do a bolt on kit...
Mine holds on power once hot but struggles on gear changes
Still got to try a genuine cable to see if it sorts the slipping on changes (I know 🙄) but it still slips going through the power the first couple of times so is just coping I'd say
Steve
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Post by muttsnuts on Sept 11, 2020 11:57:47 GMT 1
yeah you need a good 4.3mm extra for it all to fit, 8 plate baskets aren't an issue, the hibs are, stock hubs won't carry 7 steels and 8 fricton plates, the last friction plate comes out and jams under the pressure cover, I've tried machinging and all manner of mods, none have worked satisfactorily, hence the custom made hub.
Agree the hinson ones are very tight, I've allowed a small tolerance for the hard anodising, and the prototype one fits on no problem, but they aren't easy things to machine that's for sure !
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Post by reedpete on Sept 11, 2020 12:34:32 GMT 1
Im sure I read somewhere about narrower friction plates that fit an LC basket, allowing to add another....seems I’m dreaming ?
Alternatively if the principle topic is how to build a clutch such that its torque limit isn’t exceeded by higher power motors then perhaps an alternative approach would be to alter the primary ratios, speed it up 10% taking 10% torque off of it?
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Post by JonW on Sept 11, 2020 14:08:27 GMT 1
Dave, I'm interested subject to cost as Id like to give my 421 a fighting chance. I have been idly looking at lock up clutches and would rather not go that route etc. Good work as ever  |
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Post by markylc on Sept 11, 2020 14:56:42 GMT 1
that's timely. The Hinson 8 plate clutch kit is on my shopping list, I would definitely be interested.
LC bottom end . OW31 top end.
ta
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Post by lcmarky on Sept 11, 2020 16:31:56 GMT 1
I'm interested too as was planning a new basket etc for my 400 build..
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Post by Tobyjugs on Sept 12, 2020 2:02:05 GMT 1
Hi Dave the only concern I have with an 8 plate clutch is the drag. I believe a lot of the drag people experiance is down to the amount of free play between the plates once the clutch lever is pulled in. People complain about the cheap steels being thicker and causing problems. The extra room taken up by these steels do not come anywhere near the extra space taken up by an extra friction and steel plate. Have you also catered for this?
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Post by jon on Sept 12, 2020 8:08:22 GMT 1
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Post by bare on Sept 13, 2020 17:20:42 GMT 1
Didn't a former (since emigrated) inmate here , once develop a reasonable
machining bodge to allow for 8 plates on an otherwise stock 350 assembly ?
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Post by tsa on Sept 15, 2020 12:44:27 GMT 1
Slinger did that mod Bare and worked really well and all with modified std parts too.
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Post by Tobyjugs on Sept 15, 2020 13:36:44 GMT 1
Slinger did that mod Bare and worked really well and all with modified std parts too. Hi Kenny was there any problems with clutch drag? |
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Post by midlifecrisisrd on Sept 15, 2020 13:53:05 GMT 1
Slinger did that mod Bare and worked really well and all with modified std parts too. Hi Kenny was there any problems with clutch drag? Even with the Hinson 8 plate the actuator travel is the same but you will have less clearance when fully disengaged Think the problem would be getting the required stack height while keeping the end plate engaged on the inner basket Just had a look at a pressure plate and there is quite a bit of meat on it to cut the friction face without taking any off the castlated section The outer basket grooves would need the rounded corners at the bottom of the fingers or even cut deeper to move the plates further in if skimming the inner basket friction face and shaving the thrust washer between the outer and inner basket (you need to add whatever you shave off to being the tab washer) Well that's the theory 🤔 I've had a long time to think about this, can you tell 🤣 Steve |
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Post by bare on Sept 15, 2020 18:21:39 GMT 1
Is there a Wayback function in this Forum??
Asking as Slinger posted Very descriptive pix of his 8 plate setup and mods.
I had seriously considered copying it.. but having Zero Slip issues using the larger sized Ferodo 'race' frictions.. there wasn't a pressing need.. and I'm lazy.
His pix when found could make for a Good how to lesson. I have them neatly stored on a hard drive.. somewhere which is likely going to be a problem .. always is.
Failing that.. He's in Nova Scotia and has a business working on Outboard and snowmobile engines etc.
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Post by Tobyjugs on Sept 15, 2020 22:16:43 GMT 1
Hi Kenny was there any problems with clutch drag? Even with the Hinson 8 plate the actuator travel is the same but you will have less clearance when fully disengaged Think the problem would be getting the required stack height while keeping the end plate engaged on the inner basket Just had a look at a pressure plate and there is quite a bit of meat on it to cut the friction face without taking any off the castlated section The outer basket grooves would need the rounded corners at the bottom of the fingers or even cut deeper to move the plates further in if skimming the inner basket friction face and shaving the thrust washer between the outer and inner basket (you need to add whatever you shave off to being the tab washer) Well that's the theory 🤔 I've had a long time to think about this, can you tell 🤣 Steve Hi Steve I've made one for the big bore engine a while ago but i have a nagging feeling it wont be that good. It will be ok for my Bakker project but for daily use i'm not so confident. I will just have to fit it and see. |
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Post by muttsnuts on Sept 17, 2020 20:30:15 GMT 1
all good points/questions lads.
The clutch has been designed around standard thickness clutch plates, so 3.00mm fibres and 1.15mm/1.20mm steels, all of which are readily available and are all I use, I don't use the thinner fibres and the thicker steels as supplied by lots of sellers, they do cause drag and other issues
I've got 2 test hubs done, just got to send them away for hard anodising, finding somebody just to 2 is proving interesting and farily expensive, but I'll get them done and then I'll put them on test
I'll keep you all updated as I go
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Post by rvl608w on Oct 19, 2020 16:48:59 GMT 1
is this based on the FZ600 clutch as fitted to Yamarks 550 triple?
Anybody any details of this hybrid clutch? i fancy having a go at one of these.
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Post by muttsnuts on Oct 19, 2020 20:24:15 GMT 1
is this based on the FZ600 clutch as fitted to Yamarks 550 triple? Anybody any details of this hybrid clutch? i fancy having a go at one of these. I have the FZ600 clutch here, completely different setup, has 5 posts for a start, not six, so you need to use the whole of the FZ600 clutch and they aren't that easy to find or get hold of these days as its from a very specific model/year as they changed as the model progressed, so you need to be aware of which clutch you need, so that it fits the splines on the gearbox main shaft |
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Post by tsa on Oct 20, 2020 15:26:17 GMT 1
I think maybe he meant FZ600 clutch plates Dave
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Post by rvl608w on Oct 21, 2020 10:05:09 GMT 1
Yes i did mean plates AND basket adapted to 31k primary gear.
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Post by muttsnuts on Oct 21, 2020 10:49:26 GMT 1
ah ok, would explain it !
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Post by Tobyjugs on Oct 21, 2020 11:04:46 GMT 1
I used a Hinson inner hub, and machined the 3mm flat ring fitted before the basket to 1.5mm. No idea what the outer basket is. I a few years ago I bought a chariot basket from Norton as I heard these could be used for an eight plate clutch. There is enough room but the first plate sits too high in the basket due to its construction.
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Post by marrcel on May 11, 2021 15:06:54 GMT 1
I just ordered a suzuki 25x40x1.5mm washer. So thats the easy part.
Now shaving of 3mm from the plate and 1.2mm from the hub. I have to contact my local engineer.
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Post by midlifecrisisrd on May 11, 2021 16:22:35 GMT 1
I just ordered a suzuki 25x40x1.5mm washer. So thats the easy part. Now shaving of 3mm from the plate and 1.2mm from the hub. I have to contact my local engineer. You got the part number for the washer 😁 Steve |
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Post by marrcel on May 11, 2021 18:41:47 GMT 1
Even fowlers have them.  |
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Post by wallcraft on May 11, 2021 23:36:59 GMT 1
Interesting, which part of the clutch plate is 3mm coming off, is it the basket were the hub to sits on top off? Confused.com.
Mark.
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Post by midlifecrisisrd on May 12, 2021 8:49:34 GMT 1
Interesting, which part of the clutch plate is 3mm coming off, is it the basket were the hub to sits on top off? Confused.com. Mark. Think it's 3mm off the end plate friction surface Steve |
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