2taol
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Post by 2taol on Sept 12, 2020 19:02:55 GMT 1
Finished the ignition system today by setting the timing and fitting the flywheel followed by fitting and torquing the heads. The gap betwen the pickup and the ramp on the flywheel is set to 0.016 and the timing set to 1.89mm BTDC. The heads were fitted and the newely coated red head bolts torqued to 19nm.
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2taol
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Post by 2taol on Sept 13, 2020 10:49:20 GMT 1
-snip- One of the washers is a larger diameter too, so I think you need to make sure the smaller diameter sits "inside" the bearing retainer; 20200521_072306 by dusty miller, on Flickr This pic shows the 2 washers where they would sit if the clutch basket was fitted; 20200521_072242 by dusty miller, on Flickr I would look at these washers if there is nothing else obvious Dusty tuning back into the clutch and after a lot of searching for info i came across a thread on the 2strokeworld forum bout converting an early DS clutch to 7 plates. Chuck posted up some detailed measurements and pics. An interesting one below goes along with what dusty said above. I'm going to have to source a later Thrust washer 1, possibly 2 of them because later in the thread chuck fitted 2 of the inner washers, 1 between the basket and hub. At this stage Im going to have to get to a result with whatever combo works i recon. www.2strokeworld.net/forum/index.php?topic=1304.0
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2taol
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Post by 2taol on Sept 16, 2020 21:46:18 GMT 1
tanks jonw and dusty, the inlets do look really great. im gonna wait for the spacers and see if they will help when fitting the carbs hopping back over to the carbs, i got the spacers today and im wondering which way to fit them, do i space both the reeds and inlet or just the inlet rubber?
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2taol
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Post by 2taol on Sept 17, 2020 23:44:34 GMT 1
-snip- One of the washers is a larger diameter too, so I think you need to make sure the smaller diameter sits "inside" the bearing retainer; 20200521_072306 by dusty miller, on Flickr This pic shows the 2 washers where they would sit if the clutch basket was fitted; 20200521_072242 by dusty miller, on Flickr I would look at these washers if there is nothing else obvious Dusty tuning back into the clutch and after a lot of searching for info i came across a thread on the 2strokeworld forum bout converting an early DS clutch to 7 plates. Chuck posted up some detailed measurements and pics. An interesting one below goes along with what dusty said above. I'm going to have to source a later Thrust washer 1, possibly 2 of them because later in the thread chuck fitted 2 of the inner washers, 1 between the basket and hub. At this stage Im going to have to get to a result with whatever combo works i recon. www.2strokeworld.net/forum/index.php?topic=1304.0and back to the clutch, I have a result! I received 2no. 360-16154-00 (250LC) thrust washers from fowlers, got them fitted just now and my inner hub is now rotating freely when all is torqued up. very happy now.
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2taol
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Posts: 378
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Post by 2taol on Sept 22, 2020 22:20:30 GMT 1
recently im feeling like this is a dry build rather than a final build... This evening I Fitted a new 38T rear sprocket and fitted an old chain to calculate the length of new chain needed, but ran into a few issues previously overlooked or missed. I really need an 8mm offset front sprocket which will line up with the rear chain on a standard un-shaved carrier and also clear the inner face of the chain tunnel of the swingarm. I was hoping a 4mm offset would work but the chain is too close to the swingarm. Running the 8mm offset or any offset for that matter creates 2 problems, (a.) the chain will hit or run too close to the exhaust and (b.) the chain and sprocket will be too close or hit the clutch pushrod actuator on the inside of the side case. Problem (a.) can be over come with a secondary chain roller ?? Problem (b.) ??
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Post by sidney81 on Sept 23, 2020 7:08:30 GMT 1
Hi bud , can you not skim the carrier! 4 mm possible ?? ,What size front sprocket do you have ? ,Its a bugger you fix a problem just to create another!! That's what I found ! All about problem solving!!
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Post by dusty350 on Sept 23, 2020 7:21:10 GMT 1
You have a few options, dependant on a couple of things ! What pitch of chain are you using. If you aren't already - go to a 520 pitch. The sprocket width is 6mm, and the chain links will be narrower too. Front sprocket - hard to tell but is it 18 tooth ? Could you drop to 17t to reduce the diameter ? Not sure of the final gearing on your engine - maybe it would work ok. Which side of the swingarm does the chain hit ? If it's closer to the outer edge - the left side as you look from behind, you could get the sprocket counter bored on it's inside edge, moving the sprocket in towards the wheel. You would need to leave the top few mm where the teeth are untouched of course. I'm getting a Talon sprocket counter bored at the moment - will do a pic once it's done - costs £20 at a local engineering place. I need a massive offset on my 400 build, thanks to the width of the rear wheel and swingarm in relation to the output shaft. I'm trying to lose a few mm at the back and gain a few at the front to even things up. Your chain will run ok with a slight offset variance, but too much will wear teeth on the edge of the sprockets and sound noisy too. Milling a few mm off the sprocket carrier is another option, again dependant on your set up - I'm not familiar with the rear wheel you are using. I didn't want to mill my Rgv sprocket carrier as they are regarded as weak, so went for the counter bored sprocket instead. As for the issue with the pipes, can you space the hangers away from the frame, meaning the pipes move outwards ? Or even mount the exhausts on the outer face of their footrest mounts - had to do that on the 430 I just sold and the few mm was enough for the chain to miss the left pipe. Both B&c Express and Talon are great to deal with, should you need to change things. Lots of stock and fast delivery. When I was first mulling over options, I enquired with Talon regards offset front sprockets sizes etc. They can make anything you want, and as long as it's less than 25mm a special will cost you £100, with a wait time, thanks to Covid, of 4 months !! I'm also having a new front sprocket spacer made up at 16.5 mm - 2mm more than a standard 400, but 2.5 mm less than a Pv spacer. Theold spacers are hardened so you cant machine them down unfortunately Good luck Dusty
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2taol
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Post by 2taol on Sept 23, 2020 12:53:56 GMT 1
sidney81 dusty350im using a 17/38 sprocket combination as this is close to the same ratio as the standard gearing of the RD250 with 18" wheels. Im using a 520 type chain setup! I have 2 rear sprocket carriers, one standard and one shaved by 8mm to line up with the front sprocket original position, i didnt fully consider the consequences of this at the time as the chain is running too close to the inside "right" face of the swingarm, so really/ideally the chain and sprockets need to be spaced further out from the engine. This will mean the rear sprocket can be used on the standard carrier and the chain will clear the swingarm more and run perfectly on the chain slider of the swingarm too. This in turn creates the issue with the pushrod actuator and pipe clearance. I suppose I could have the front sprocket offset by maybe 6mm and maybe use a 16 front... Ill check out the idea of spacing the pipes to the outside of the hangers... What a head wreck
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Post by dusty350 on Sept 23, 2020 14:56:53 GMT 1
It's one of the joys of specials building !! Chain run can be a bitch on some builds. The Lc/Ac style pushrod causes problems you don't get with a Pv engine ! Your chain does look very close to the pushrod though - a 16 might help with a bit more clearance but then you have the issue of the rear sprocket maybe needing more teeth, so a bigger diameter. Regards pipes - I spaced my footrest plates away from the frame with 10mm spacers due to the wider swingarm. If left standard, the pipes would foul the swingarm, and the chain would hit the left pipe the same as yours is doing, 20190810_155606 by dusty miller, on Flickr Dusty
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2taol
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Post by 2taol on Sept 23, 2020 18:38:16 GMT 1
Thanks Dusty, nice image above!
I have the left hanger spaced aready because the swinger was fouling the exhaust, im not sure I can space it much more , ill check later.
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Post by dusty350 on Sept 23, 2020 20:17:01 GMT 1
Just been digging through some old pics. I have had a 9mm offset front sprocket on 2 previous builds - an Rd400 with R1z running gear, and a hybrid Lc with Rgv running gear. Both bikes had a chain running very close to the clutch pushrod. Certainly with the Lc - I can say that it has done over 1000 miles with absolutely no issues regards the chain touching the pushrod, so I think you'll be fine. The 400 orientation was exactly the same; Latest Rd pics 018 by dusty miller, on Flickr Make sure you can fit a lock/tab washer under the sprocket nut though Dusty
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2taol
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Post by 2taol on Sept 23, 2020 22:48:47 GMT 1
Great dusty, thanks for the info and image. I fitted spacers behind the front sprocket to bring it out 8mm then fitted the side case, clutch cable and actuator. Adjusted the cable and actuator and engaged/disengaged the clutch and everything is fine clearance wise! the image is shot looking upwards after removing the exhaust. The only issue I have is the lower chain run hitting the exhaust, I cant move the exhaust without interfering with the side stand, I have very little clearance there, I really think I have to fit a roller
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Post by sidney81 on Sept 24, 2020 7:11:52 GMT 1
Great dusty, thanks for the info and image. I fitted spacers behind the front sprocket to bring it out 8mm then fitted the side case, clutch cable and actuator. Adjusted the cable and actuator and engaged/disengaged the clutch and everything is fine clearance wise! the image is shot looking upwards after removing the exhaust. The only issue I have is the lower chain run hitting the exhaust, I cant move the exhaust without interfering with the side stand, I have very little clearance there, I really think I have to fit a roller morning, can you fit a sprung tention roller ? To hold hold the chain away from the pipe ? Not sure it would work ! Just a idea maybe ?
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2taol
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Post by 2taol on Sept 24, 2020 7:20:08 GMT 1
yes chris, just like on dirt/motocross bikes! i will have to check that, mounted to the frame I think I will have space.
I guessing right behind the rearset hanger and fixed in place with the same bolts as the rearset itself.
will check that this evening
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2taol
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Post by 2taol on Sept 25, 2020 7:46:08 GMT 1
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Post by sidney81 on Sept 25, 2020 8:45:55 GMT 1
So the A/B rd s have a different out put shaft to the E/F s ,mines a late E and uses the same sprocket as a pv , ?
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Post by dusty350 on Sept 25, 2020 8:51:17 GMT 1
What offset front do you need ? I've seen an old sprocket machined down so it becomes a spacer basically, that fits onto the output shaft. That old sprocket is then welded onto the back of a new sprocket, so spacing it out like an offset sprocket would be. If you machined an old 530 pitch front and welded it to a new 520 front, would you achieve the offset required? If that worked, it's gotta be cheaper and quicker than getting a special made up ?
Dusty
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2taol
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Post by 2taol on Sept 25, 2020 11:14:40 GMT 1
So the A/B rd s have a different out put shaft to the E/F s ,mines a late E and uses the same sprocket as a pv , ? Yes Chris, The A/B's have 13 splines the models after has 6!
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2taol
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Post by 2taol on Sept 25, 2020 11:22:39 GMT 1
What offset front do you need ? I've seen an old sprocket machined down so it becomes a spacer basically, that fits onto the output shaft. That old sprocket is then welded onto the back of a new sprocket, so spacing it out like an offset sprocket would be. If you machined an old 530 pitch front and welded it to a new 520 front, would you achieve the offset required? If that worked, it's gotta be cheaper and quicker than getting a special made up ? Dusty Hi dusty, yup Ive seen this done and I have an old 530 sprocket 9mm thick! I need 8mm could also use 9mm but that would be pushing it. That indeed could be machined dowm with teeth removed, welded to the new 520 sprocket and that in turn could be machined with a recess to allow space on the shaft for the tab washer and nut. For me this is a last resort, I have an engineering company who does bits and bobs for me, im not sure they weld! its a precision fabrication place, so I would then have to get it welded elsewhere, im just not sure of the logistics of alignment after machining etc. I could work it by threading the two pieces together, havnt the old sprocket machined, then welded elsewhere and then re-machining of the new sprocket then welded again on the other side... I have emailed another crowd in Holland VVMRacing t see what their rate is? I hope that all makes sense
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Post by Tobyjugs on Sept 25, 2020 11:53:40 GMT 1
You can also fit a pulley which is fixed to the chassis to guide your chain away from the pipes. The underside of the chain is "loose" as all the driving forces are transmitted via the top part of the chassis.
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2taol
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Post by 2taol on Sept 25, 2020 12:51:57 GMT 1
thanks tj, I have orderded a budget sprung unit from ebay, hopefully i will be able to do something with it!
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2taol
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Posts: 378
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Post by 2taol on Sept 30, 2020 19:54:49 GMT 1
back to the carbs, finally got around to fitting the 5mm reed block spacers, hopefully this will aid the fitting of the carbs. The carbs are lined up to get rebuilt after another ultrasonic clean. going to start with standard jets and settings.
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2taol
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Posts: 378
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Post by 2taol on Oct 1, 2020 22:28:38 GMT 1
carbs built with 15mm float heights and 1.5 turns out with the air screw. fitting the carbs between the rubbers is an absolute - p i t a! Had to split the airbox to access the rubbers from the inside. I estimate I will have to tinker with cae carbs to change jets etc. so Im not going to be able to deal with the torture of this so im thinking of a different setup! Y boot and uni pod... It also means im going to change to a sealed battery and fitting it in a diferent location as the airbox will be removed.
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Post by dusty350 on Oct 2, 2020 7:26:26 GMT 1
The reed spacer's will make getting the carbs on and off much harder of course. Have you considered a billet inlet ? That "may" put your carbs are a better height to mate with the airbox rubbers. Most guys will promote keeping the airbox if possible, and as you know, that makes battery siting a doddle too on a Pv. Just took a pic of the billet inlet I got from Mutts for my 400. Difficult to show the higher angle the carbs sit at, but it might help 20201002_071623 by dusty miller, on Flickr Got them on my Café bike too - they definitely sit higher than standard rubbers; 20190622_175818 by dusty miller, on Flickr Dusty
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2taol
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Post by 2taol on Oct 2, 2020 12:32:02 GMT 1
ya they do look like the business all right dusty. im thinking i wint have the physical space to get the airbox rubbers on using those billet mounts, it looks like the car s do sit higher but also further back too.
Im also thinking of using those foam pods and cutting the front of the airbox out so i can retain the battery mount.
I may also have to change carbs ?
thanks dusty
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Post by andy748 on Oct 2, 2020 17:02:13 GMT 1
Can you not get a hole saw the same diameter as the current airbox hole and then re-cut the hole as low as possible, the cresent shaped piece you cut out should plastic weld on the top of the hole to bring it all in line? Andy.
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2taol
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Post by 2taol on Oct 2, 2020 19:41:44 GMT 1
Can you not get a hole saw the same diameter as the current airbox hole and then re-cut the hole as low as possible, the cresent shaped piece you cut out should plastic weld on the top of the hole to bring it all in line? Andy. hmmmmmmm, light bulb moment! let me mull this over....
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2taol
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Post by 2taol on Oct 3, 2020 22:09:22 GMT 1
so here is what im planning for tomorrows session. im gonna modify the airbox by cutting the front panel and re-installing the panel 180° so the airbox to carb rubbers line up. I estimate a difference in height of 12.5mm. By rotating the pice cutout there will be no need for infill pieces. I can either plastic weld the panel in or I can use epoxy!
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Post by sidney81 on Oct 3, 2020 22:18:55 GMT 1
Nice ,love the drawing 😊 that should work nicley ?
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