2taol
Thrash Merchant
Posts: 378
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Post by 2taol on Sept 4, 2020 22:12:06 GMT 1
thank you sir! Small update while waiting for parts, I fitted a different Aprilia front caliper (ive a few of them with new seals) as I didnt feel the red didnt suit the dull gold of the rear. I made up a new Goodridge braided line with stainless banjos. I was short a stainless banjo bolt with the right thread pitch so fitted an old one anyway. Got the reservoir relocated for a better pipe connection to the master cylinder with new clips.
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2taol
Thrash Merchant
Posts: 378
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Post by 2taol on Sept 6, 2020 19:28:56 GMT 1
Im using a standard YPVS F2 airbox but an issue has arisen and I see a problem ahead connecting the carbs to the airbox rubbers. The carb to cylinder inlet rubbers dont line up with the airbox rubbers, hopefully there is enough play in the rubbers to make everything connect. I need to setup the carbs after the ultrasonic clean and rebuild the had recently. Im thinking I may have to get an angled reed block spacer made up to correct the angle of the carb?
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Post by Tobyjugs on Sept 7, 2020 13:03:35 GMT 1
Im using a standard YPVS F2 airbox but an issue has arisen and I see a problem ahead connecting the carbs to the airbox rubbers. The carb to cylinder inlet rubbers dont line up with the airbox rubbers, hopefully there is enough play in the rubbers to make everything connect. I need to setup the carbs after the ultrasonic clean and rebuild the had recently. Im thinking I may have to get an angled reed block spacer made up to correct the angle of the carb? An angled spacer would be my choice as well. Have you thought about different rubbers or rotating them 180 deg to see if you can use a smaller angled spacer?
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2taol
Thrash Merchant
Posts: 378
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Post by 2taol on Sept 7, 2020 21:29:34 GMT 1
Thanks tobyjugs, i think rotating the rubbers would leave the carbs pointing upwards. First off i'll try fitting the carbs after setting them up. If they dont fit I'll have to get an angled spacer. I picked up a 29mm socket today for the clutch centre nutand after torquing it up to 60nm the inner and outer of the clutch are pretty much locked together, I need a ratchet on the centre nut to turn the transmission shaft and a ratchet on the primary to turn the outer clutch basket. To me that doesnt feel right. Frustrating and premature halt to todays proceedings. What I have assembled is: bearing retaining bracket stepped washer/spacer outer clutch basket washer inner clutch basket domed washer nut
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2taol
Thrash Merchant
Posts: 378
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Post by 2taol on Sept 7, 2020 22:47:28 GMT 1
im thinking part #15 which is spacer 1 needs replacing, this is what the centre thrust washer sits against and what the outer basket rotates on. if its too short the thrust washer can sit against the outer basket. part # 278-16181-01 am i on the right track?
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Post by dusty350 on Sept 8, 2020 16:28:43 GMT 1
I'm not familiar with your model of engine, but the inner hub should move freely once the clutch nut is tight. Sounds like something is amiss. Behind the basket you should have a large thrust washer, then your grooved spacer, then you basket then another thrust washer. There is an anomaly in the Yam fiche though. Are your 2 thrust washers the same thickness ? Yam fiche gives 2 different dimensions, i think there is 1mm difference, but gives the same part number for both washers !! So 1 washer seems 1mm thicker than the other. On lc's, pv's and later aircooleds the washers are the same. I wonder if you have 1 thinner washer ?
Dusty
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Post by jon on Sept 8, 2020 17:53:25 GMT 1
I'm not familiar with your model of engine, but the inner hub should move freely once the clutch nut is tight. Sounds like something is amiss. Behind the basket you should have a large thrust washer, then your grooved spacer, then you basket then another thrust washer. There is an anomaly in the Yam fiche though. Are your 2 thrust washers the same thickness ? Yam fiche gives 2 different dimensions, i think there is 1mm difference, but gives the same part number for both washers !! So 1 washer seems 1mm thicker than the other. On lc's, pv's and later aircooleds the washers are the same. I wonder if you have 1 thinner washer ? Dusty Even with one washer thicker than the other, I can see it makes a difference to the clamping of the centre hub? Surely it’s only the bush that clamps up between the hub? Different bushes? Jon
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Post by dusty350 on Sept 8, 2020 18:52:24 GMT 1
I'm not saying that is the issue, but when I stripped my 400e engine I found 2 different washers (thickness). The fiche confirmed the sizes as 2 different thicknesses, so you would image it's how it should be. But, the part number is the same for both washers ?? So I wonder which one you would get if you ordered one ? As I said, I'm not familiar with the 250b engine, so maybe it makes a difference allied with something else ? One thing is certain though, and that's the fact the inner hub is tight against the basket which shouldn't be the case. My 400 engine was an unknown quantity when I bought it, so I couldn't prove how effective the clutch was, but the inner hub did spin independently from the main basket, as it should.One of the washers is a larger diameter too, so I think you need to make sure the smaller diameter sits "inside" the bearing retainer; 20200521_072306 by dusty miller, on Flickr This pic shows the 2 washers where they would sit if the clutch basket was fitted; 20200521_072242 by dusty miller, on Flickr I would look at these washers if there is nothing else obvious Dusty
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2taol
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Posts: 378
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Post by 2taol on Sept 8, 2020 18:58:56 GMT 1
thanks for the input guys. i going to have a good look at the parts diagrams on the pc tonight and ill print them off. ill get to the garage and double check everything and thriw up better pics. really appreciate the input from everyone, without it id be lost on this one.
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Post by jon on Sept 8, 2020 19:02:19 GMT 1
I am sort of see what you’re saying now. If the inner drum is designed for a thick washer and you use a thin, it could bind on the crown wheel?
If so there will be witness marks showing the rubbing?
Seems like too tight a tolerance to design it like that?
Jon
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Post by dusty350 on Sept 8, 2020 19:20:06 GMT 1
My fiche's only go back as far as 400c as I've never had anything older than that. The grooved spacer and inner hub is the same part from 400c through to F2 Ypvs. But from the Lc onwards the 2 thrust washers were the same dimensions as each other, so it would never matter which way round they were fitted. I'm just thinking if you use the earlier, different sized washers the wrong way round, it may cause binding ? Dusty
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2taol
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Posts: 378
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Post by 2taol on Sept 8, 2020 19:20:23 GMT 1
_snip_ so I think you need to make sure the smaller diameter sits "inside" the bearing retainer; I think this is it, i dont have anything inside the retainer and the washer outside it should be inside it, this should allow the basket to sit closer "in" and leaving a space between it and the hub, ooooh im a bit excited now! just having dinner, then have to fix a caliper on the car then ill check the clutch.....
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Post by dusty350 on Sept 8, 2020 19:37:53 GMT 1
Good luck ! The smaller diameter washer is also the thicker of the 2. Dusty
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2taol
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Posts: 378
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Post by 2taol on Sept 8, 2020 23:06:12 GMT 1
so I got to the garage and took all parts involved apart. I cannot put anything behind the bearing retaining plate, the bearing is flush with the case. There are 2 washers, 1 stepped as per #16 in the schematics above and a plain #14.
with the retaining plate back on the stepped washer sits into the retainer, then the spacer, then the basket. Looking sideways on the face of the basket it is flush with the spacer so the only thing the thrust washer can mate against is the basket [doesnt make sense]
With the thrust washer I have it pushes the hub out quite far off the splines whereas without the washer the hub sits flush with the edge of the splines When I torque up the nut with the dome washer [facing only 1 of 2 ways] without the thrust washer the hub runs free! Im guessing the correct thrust washer is quite thin.
IMO The nut/dome washer dont actually tighten against the centre hub,
they tighten up against the edge of the splines.
I'm wondering if this was the cause of the engine being made redundant by the previous owner. The clutch plates are new, they are 3mm thick, the springs are outside the useable limit,
but I recon with this thrust washer fitted there was no operational clutch, it maybe explains why there was no bearing retaining plate also
anyway I'll order a correct thrust washer and see what arrives ?
Thanks again to Jon and Dusty for the input.
Retaining plate with stepped washer [it looks a bit chewed up but they are not available new]
Spacer with worm groove
Basket and thrust washer
Side view of basket and spacer
Hub with thrust washer
Hub without thrust washer
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Post by dusty350 on Sept 9, 2020 7:00:11 GMT 1
Just a thought. Is that bearing retainer plate from Yambits ? If so, check the dimensions. A lot of their parts have been proven to be poorly made or differ to the dimensions of the original parts. I may have an original retainer plate in the shed. I will have a look today. I don't buy anything from Shambits for the engine, or any safety critical parts for that reason. It might not be the case of course, but if it's a Yambits part it's not guarantee'd to be right, unlike a Yamaha part And I've not seen the stepped thrust washer before - correct for your model I'm sure, and proves Yamaha changed certain parts as time went on. Dusty
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2taol
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Posts: 378
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Post by 2taol on Sept 9, 2020 9:04:56 GMT 1
yes got it from yambits, it measures 1.8mm thick!
would be great if you measured yours dusty, thanks a mill!
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Post by dusty350 on Sept 9, 2020 10:26:34 GMT 1
Mmm, searched high and low and can't find the retainer plate ? Sure I had one. Anyway, if you thrust washer presses against the retainer plate - it looks like it may do in your pic, then it's not right. The washer should sit within the plate, so it can't bind against it.
Dusty
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Post by jon on Sept 9, 2020 17:18:02 GMT 1
Im using a standard YPVS F2 airbox but an issue has arisen and I see a problem ahead connecting the carbs to the airbox rubbers. The carb to cylinder inlet rubbers dont line up with the airbox rubbers, hopefully there is enough play in the rubbers to make everything connect. I need to setup the carbs after the ultrasonic clean and rebuild the had recently. Im thinking I may have to get an angled reed block spacer made up to correct the angle of the carb? If you get angled spacer made, won’t you have to also have angled washers under each inlet rubber bolt? It might be nice to machine a strip that has 2 sloped ramps one for the top and bottom screw on either side. It would keep them fro turning like a cam. Jon
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Post by flames on Sept 9, 2020 19:11:49 GMT 1
You would also need to alter the fuel level in carbs to suit ? If you could get offset rubbers from carbs to airbox it might make life easier.
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Post by dusty350 on Sept 9, 2020 19:22:09 GMT 1
Back on my PC now so can see the pics better. The first pic in your most recent post shows witness marks on the retainer plate. When you tighten up the clutch nut you are locking the thrust washer against the retainer plate - that's why you cant easily turn the basket. You can see the clearance this thrust washer has when sat "inside" the retainer plate; 20200521_072242 by dusty miller, on Flickr I wonder if the retainer plate you have fitted has too small an internal diameter, so wont allow the thrust washer the clearance. I've just measured the outer diameter of a later thrust washer and it's 43.4mm, so if the hole in the retainer plate is not at least that, +1 mm or 2, it's gonna bind. Dusty
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2taol
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Posts: 378
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Post by 2taol on Sept 9, 2020 22:24:36 GMT 1
hi dusty, the stepped washer is actually sitting into the retainer. from your previous post i cant put the washer behind the retainer there isnt space. from the last image the retainer is thicker than the step in the washer. The stepped washer is correct because it was only used on the 74/75 rd's (and maybe the earlier A/C models?) Because I can get a result without the middle thrust washer, i recon i have the wrong one, i ordered a correct one from fowlers last night. Thanks for all the help and effort.
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2taol
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Posts: 378
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Post by 2taol on Sept 9, 2020 22:30:59 GMT 1
Im using a standard YPVS F2 airbox but an issue has arisen and I see a problem ahead connecting the carbs to the airbox rubbers. The carb to cylinder inlet rubbers dont line up with the airbox rubbers, hopefully there is enough play in the rubbers to make everything connect. I need to setup the carbs after the ultrasonic clean and rebuild the had recently. Im thinking I may have to get an angled reed block spacer made up to correct the angle of the carb? If you get angled spacer made, won’t you have to also have angled washers under each inlet rubber bolt? It might be nice to machine a strip that has 2 sloped ramps one for the top and bottom screw on either side. It would keep them fro turning like a cam. Jon yea jon, might have to consider the bolts, the angle through the rubbers and angled spacer particularly the bottom 4 will be altered, the holes may have to be widened, it gets a bit messy actually..... hmmm
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Post by jon on Sept 9, 2020 22:36:41 GMT 1
2taolMaybe just a parallel spacer would work? It would raise it and bring it slightly closer at the same time. If you look at the angles, it might just mean squashing the airbox rubbers, and or removing some on the parallel section? Worth a try, they are cheap. Jon
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2taol
Thrash Merchant
Posts: 378
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Post by 2taol on Sept 9, 2020 22:40:29 GMT 1
You would also need to alter the fuel level in carbs to suit ? If you could get offset rubbers from carbs to airbox it might make life easier. yes its a consideration flames, offset rubbers would work but I wouldnt know where to get them? maybe a consideration of moving the airbox, or adjusting the angle of it......
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2taol
Thrash Merchant
Posts: 378
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Post by 2taol on Sept 9, 2020 22:51:56 GMT 1
2taolMaybe just a parallel spacer would work? It would raise it and bring it slightly closer at the same time. If you look at the angles, it might just mean squashing the airbox rubbers, and or removing some on the parallel section? Worth a try, they are cheap. Jon yes, makes sense. I have 5mm spacers ordered! there is a consequence to adding spacers between carbs and reeds isnt there? cant remember what they are.... Thanks jon, thanks for the ideas
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Post by jon on Sept 9, 2020 23:02:54 GMT 1
The consequence is a possible improvement in the infamous mid range stutter.
Not heard of any detriments?
Just moves things round a ‘little’ I think. If a little is enough for your bike then happy days.
Yours is a different story of ergonomics.
Jon
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Post by JonW on Sept 10, 2020 1:10:11 GMT 1
How far wrong are they if upside down?
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Post by JonW on Sept 10, 2020 1:11:29 GMT 1
Wicked (sold through norbo and others) makes a cross over manifold that lifts carbs up, others do them too. I assume they fit on the AC cyls as well, but dont know about the spacing.
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Post by dusty350 on Sept 10, 2020 6:50:17 GMT 1
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2taol
Thrash Merchant
Posts: 378
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Post by 2taol on Sept 11, 2020 22:18:32 GMT 1
tanks jonw and dusty, the inlets do look really great.
im gonna wait for the spacers and see if they will help when fitting the carbs
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