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Post by midlifecrisisrd on Feb 12, 2020 9:15:25 GMT 1
A load of good work (and cash) went in to that
I agree the rear suspension is a ball ache
I can't quite understand how it goes so wrong considering all the bushes have oil seals
Can only think it was poor design and even if greased it would wear and then let water in to exaggerate the problem
Steve
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Post by JonW on Feb 12, 2020 9:29:44 GMT 1
A load of good work (and cash) went in to that I agree the rear suspension is a ball ache I can't quite understand how it goes so wrong considering all the bushes have oil seals Can only think it was poor design and even if greased it would wear and then let water in to exaggerate the problem Steve yeah, dont let my Mrs see this thread lol! i think its the owners. lol. most of them felt like they had enough to do bolting on foam grips and spannies and of course rebuidling the engines; the suspension wasnt on their radar. Once the seals wear water gets in and its all over. But... its a good over engineered design i think so it soldiered on without compliant and people continued to ignore it. I do think taht if you look after it by pulling it down and servicing it then it would last forever but no one seems to ever have done that
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2020 11:44:24 GMT 1
I should have that axle in the post tomorrow for you
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Post by JonW on Feb 12, 2020 12:33:32 GMT 1
Thanks Howard, you're a star mate!
This bike is going to have to have a long acceptance speech when its done. The list of people to thank is huge!
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Post by JonW on Feb 12, 2020 12:41:30 GMT 1
The nightmare of the PV controller. So my question... We know the 29L-50 CDI’s go bad over time, but what’s the score with the PV controllers? Well... I’ve got 2 here and neither of them work. That cant be a coincidence can it? [1] I was a bit perplexed when I spun the key on the bike with the dash and other circuits connected and got none of the Whirrrs I expected from the PV servo. I tried both my 83/4 PV controllers and two servos and nuthin, nix, nada... Hmm. I thought it must be the CDI or the wiring. I started to mess with my F1, removing the CDI connections to see how little it needed connected to still do its POST. And yes... PVs still spin on start up. Then I removed the trigger wire to the controller and they still spin. So all it needs is power and ground... and to be connected to the servo of course! After checking I had power at the plugs on the 83/4 PV controller I tried the black/red output and there was no pulse with key-on. I finally tested the 83/4 PV controllers on my F1 with some dodgy wiring hacks and it confirmed what I knew by then, these were both duff. WTF?! I dug through my F2s box and found what was said to be a working controller... but id been told that about the 83/4 units. Plugged it into the F1 and it's fine. Phew. Swapped the 85+ 2 plug for a 83/4 3 version, making up a flylead to connect the bullet connector into that plug. Now this will work with the OEM LC2 wiring as a plug and play. Plugged in.... And... {drumroll}... Wahooo! We have the correct PV action. I have read that these controllers do differ slightly between the years with when they open the PVs, but I doubt its going to be any kind of issue with this bike. I know guys whove run DT200R and TZR controllers on their bikes and said they couldn’t tell the difference. So what have I learnt. The PV controller doesn’t need the CDI or the stator to POST, only a simple power and earth will do it. They say you learn something new every day, and it seems they got that right today. If anyone has a way of making these 83/4 controllers work again for not silly money (I know about the Greek guy who was doing a dip switch version, but don’t have his details), then im all ears. It seems crazy to just chuck them away. I could always give this fix a go I guess? www.rzrd500.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=11964Next up the CDI... 52Y-50 in an LC2. [1] - Im starting to wonder if this is actually a case of the parts simply drying up here in Aus. ie people keep all manner of non-working crap on shelves and forget its broken, and then it gets sold on as 'working' on ebay, forums, gumtree etc. If this is true, we really are scraping the barrel when two PV controllers from different sources procured at different times are both stuffed.
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Post by midlifecrisisrd on Feb 12, 2020 15:56:35 GMT 1
The controllers can be iffy but seem to be a work or not scenario and not like the cdi that can do lots of stuff intermittently Thing the "Greek" can sort them www.2t-racelab.com/?m=1Steve
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Post by JonW on Feb 12, 2020 22:05:01 GMT 1
The controllers can be iffy but seem to be a work or not scenario and not like the cdi that can do lots of stuff intermittently Thing the "Greek" can sort them www.2t-racelab.com/?m=1Steve Thanks Steve, I may well try soldering in some new transistors, if that works it'd be a ncie cheap fix and would provide infor for people here with dead ones.
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Post by donkeychomp on Feb 13, 2020 0:20:28 GMT 1
Pretty sure I have some dog legs somewhere Jon. Bike is moving along now and looking very smart I must say!
Alex
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Post by oldbritguy on Feb 13, 2020 0:33:51 GMT 1
This is a great build Jon and a pleasure to watch Only thing is though, after looking closer at your frame pics, I think I have routed my main loom next to the CDI on the wrong side of the frame spar. Need to get a good look at this in the morning now but not a big issue to fix as the tank and headlight are yet to be fitted. John
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Post by JonW on Feb 13, 2020 2:28:37 GMT 1
Pretty sure I have some dog legs somewhere Jon. Bike is moving along now and looking very smart I must say! Alex Thanks Alex. Most of the doglegs ive seen in the last 10 years have been totally rotted junk, so if you have good ones then youve got something very rare indeed!
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Post by JonW on Feb 13, 2020 2:29:52 GMT 1
This is a great build Jon and a pleasure to watch Only thing is though, after looking closer at your frame pics, I think I have routed my main loom next to the CDI on the wrong side of the frame spar. Need to get a good look at this in the morning now but not a big issue to fix as the tank and headlight are yet to be fitted. John Thanks John. If you look at the pics of the loom runs I believe it runs how I have it. OEB has put them up a few times now if youve not got the OEM workshop manual handy.
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Post by JonW on Feb 13, 2020 2:43:33 GMT 1
The controllers can be iffy but seem to be a work or not scenario and not like the cdi that can do lots of stuff intermittently Thing the "Greek" can sort them www.2t-racelab.com/?m=1Steve Thanks Steve, I may well try soldering in some new transistors, if that works it'd be a ncie cheap fix and would provide infor for people here with dead ones. Ok, Ive had a good look around about PV controller issues online (a lot of yams bikes used variations on these of course) and seems that these early units are possibly fixable. There are two sets of D880 and B834 transistors on the circuit board that can be the 'no output' problem, and possibly there could also be a failure with the PU4310 as well. It seems you can test the first pair perhaps, but it seems that folk just simply replace them as they are not expensive on ebay from China, but i expect bricks n mortar electronics places have them too in their old stock bins as these were used for amps, tvs, printers and other electronics of the era. The problem as ever with electronics is that the supply will eventually dry up and while it can be a pain, we would be lost without ebay as that gives us a vast marketplace to buy from and these are freely available there. These transistors work like a relay, switching the power to flow or not. So it does make sense that if im not getting power out on switching the ignition on, then maybe these are at fault. They are large enough that even rock ape solders like me can desolder and fit new ones. lol So, Im ordering some of these transistors i guess. I figure that an hour spent desoldering and then soldering in new ones isnt too taxing so worth a go. If that fails then it could be the PU4310 which you can also find on ebay. after that I'll give up lol. if i can get one working one then its worth the effort as I can return the one Im using now to my F2. One thing I did find was this info in a thread which i thought was useful: From Martin Kieltsch's book.
MODEL STARTS OPENING @ FULLY OPEN@
31K 5500 RPM 9450 RPM 1WW 6000 RPM 10200 RPM
For Comparison here are a few others
TZR250 1KT/2MA 5850 RPM 10050 RPM RD500 47X/1GE 6150 RPM 7950 RPMThis makes me wonder if the earlier unit is probably more desirable for everyday use perhaps?
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Post by oldbritguy on Feb 13, 2020 18:34:25 GMT 1
This is a great build Jon and a pleasure to watch Only thing is though, after looking closer at your frame pics, I think I have routed my main loom next to the CDI on the wrong side of the frame spar. Need to get a good look at this in the morning now but not a big issue to fix as the tank and headlight are yet to be fitted. John Thanks John. If you look at the pics of the loom runs I believe it runs how I have it. OEB has put them up a few times now if youve not got the OEM workshop manual handy. Cheers Jon I have a copy of the wiring routing and had a look at the bike today. Yup, the loom runs on the outside of the frame spar so a bit of re jigging was required. Not so simple with the air box, rad and servomotor in place but we got there with a few scraped knuckles for good measure. John
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Post by marrcel on Feb 13, 2020 18:40:59 GMT 1
I changed the transistors with succes. If you buy replacement transistors you can have too low voltage to the servo. Which makes the pv too slow. The transistors burn out when the servo askes more amperes. Controle cable or coked pv’s. May be the pv fuse is to heavy. For my ingi i have 5amps. Why 7,5?
I have another upgrade on the doglegs. Needle bearings at the linkage.
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Post by JonW on Feb 13, 2020 22:38:45 GMT 1
I changed the transistors with succes. If you buy replacement transistors you can have too low voltage to the servo. Which makes the pv too slow. The transistors burn out when the servo askes more amperes. Controle cable or coked pv’s. May be the pv fuse is to heavy. For my ingi i have 5amps. Why 7,5? I have another upgrade on the doglegs. Needle bearings at the linkage. Hi Marcel, are you saying that brand new transistors can cause the servo to run slowly? I'm surprised by that. :/ I figured if I swapped them it would be back to 'as new'. hmm... I do agree that you could fit needle rollers, you'd need 3 of them probably per side (they are 12mm wide i think in this size (24x18) but others may be available I dont know about) which is quite expensive though. My local mate who helped me with these and I thought long and hard about what the best solution was for the Doglegs and decided not to use the needle rollers as we thought it was overkill for the application. Yamaha's plastic bush was a bit rubbish as it wears oval really badly over time so the phosphor bronze was an upgrade as its lubricated and wont wear as quickly.
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Post by marrcel on Feb 14, 2020 8:47:12 GMT 1
With replacement transistors i ment other type numbers. These are darlingtons. The circuit is sensitive to the gain of the darlington. I tried others that i had laying around and the servo was slow because there was only 6 or 7 volt at the servo.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2020 10:40:34 GMT 1
Hi Jon
What size did you machine the dog legs to, and what bearing shells size did you use, it is a very good upgrade, I have a few sets of dog legs I could do that with
That looks real neat and as you say a whole lot better than the plastic bushes, which I might add I've just done on the F1, so i'm hearing you on the cost of all the bits
I've seen some H links and dog legs on fleabay with grease nipples embedded into the castings which I thought was a great idea
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Post by JonW on Feb 14, 2020 13:04:47 GMT 1
With replacement transistors i ment other type numbers. These are darlingtons. The circuit is sensitive to the gain of the darlington. I tried others that i had laying around and the servo was slow because there was only 6 or 7 volt at the servo. Ahh, I had to look up Darlington transistors... Thanks Marcel, you helped me learning something new today For those also wanting to learn; Wikipedia says "In electronics, a multi-transistor configuration called the Darlington configuration (commonly called a Darlington pair) is a compound structure of a particular design made by two bipolar transistors connected in such a way that the current amplified by the first transistor is amplified further by the second one." Ahh ok, so you are saying that I absolutely need the correct numbers. Thats cool, plenty on ebay. Thanks mate.
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Post by JonW on Feb 14, 2020 13:15:02 GMT 1
Hi Jon What size did you machine the dog legs to, and what bearing shells size did you use, it is a very good upgrade, I have a few sets of dog legs I could do that with That looks real neat and as you say a whole lot better than the plastic bushes, which I might add I've just done on the F1, so i'm hearing you on the cost of all the bits I've seen some H links and dog legs on fleabay with grease nipples embedded into the castings which I thought was a great idea They are 15mm inner bearing shells. The downside is that they are not very cheap and you need 2.5 per side. Also the doglegs are 18mm as OEM so it would be nice to use a shell with a fatter ID so the dogleg would have less material removed just to retain strength, to remove the rusty parts is only 1-2mm etc. I do think these are still up to the job though, there are quite a few other bolts in the rear suspension that are thinner (H Arm, shock etc), but fat = strength of course. The phospor bronze bushes were 25 18 30, so need 1mm from the OD to fit. Ebay specials from China. I used the same seller for the H arm phospor bronze bushes to replaced the plastic in there on the big collar, they also needed the OD reducing but where cheap enough etc. I saw those too. In his pics there is no obvious way the grease can get to the bearings, where is the hole?! He says 'at great expense' but it also looks a bit like he cut the old rotten part off and used a machine bolt or cut down some stock adding threaded ends. That is another way that would also work. I dont know which way would cost the most to be honest, all use the same size OEM style bush, but you could also use needle rollers as has been said before, tho you'd want the inner shells for that as they are hardened etc. Plenty of ways to skin this feline...
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Post by jon on Feb 14, 2020 17:06:15 GMT 1
Hi Jon What size did you machine the dog legs to, and what bearing shells size did you use, it is a very good upgrade, I have a few sets of dog legs I could do that with That looks real neat and as you say a whole lot better than the plastic bushes, which I might add I've just done on the F1, so i'm hearing you on the cost of all the bits I've seen some H links and dog legs on fleabay with grease nipples embedded into the castings which I thought was a great idea I believe the H link and dog bones with the nipples are from a Brazilian model? Jon
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2020 17:46:53 GMT 1
Not sure i think the guy on fleabay made / had them made for him
There were 3 nipple on the H link and the dog bones had 1 on each
Books123eddie is the seller
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2020 17:56:29 GMT 1
I typed in Phosphor bronze bushes and got guitar strings as well as few exotic ones
Typed in bronze bushes and got sh1t loads in the UK the want 2.80 plus 23 postage
Could you PM me a clue please
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Post by JonW on Feb 14, 2020 22:55:36 GMT 1
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2020 14:02:46 GMT 1
Cheers Jon
First one out of stock. second 1 left
You must have bought the worlds supply LOL
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Post by JonW on Feb 15, 2020 22:55:36 GMT 1
Cheers Jon First one out of stock. second 1 left You must have bought the worlds supply LOL Ask him, I bet he can get more and he's in china so bound to be other sellers, may be cheaper on aliexpress/alibaba etc.
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Post by JonW on Feb 19, 2020 1:30:19 GMT 1
Things have been a bit slower the past week on this build as Ive been weighing up my footrest options (I really want to try and fit some OEM units which is a bit problematical due to what Ive got left in the boxes now for 83-85 bikes) and Ive had some other things to work on as well outside of this project. Anyway, the good (actually 'great' is more like it) news is that this arrived: Yes, thats the correct LC2 axle! I would like to say a huge thanks for Howard (hblair on this forum) for sending this to me. Thanks mate! So, I 'could' bolt on the rear wheel, but Ive still got to put the dogleg bushes in the swingarm and currently my mate LB has got them so he can turn them down from 25mm to 24mm. When they are back and I can whip off the swinger and press them in so it seems silly to keep bolting on more things when I'll only have to undo that work anyway... Tho I guess if i did that Id probably find what other bits I was missing before needing them perhaps... er, nah, thats way too sensible an approach LOL! Actually Ive just realised I may well not have the right spacer for the LC2... Does anyone have a measurement for this so I can check? ta.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2020 7:42:21 GMT 1
Hi Jon
FYI Your pics aren't showing up on this thread, others are
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Post by JonW on Feb 19, 2020 9:03:51 GMT 1
I think its something to do with the forum, direct links work as do my websites. give it a few days and see if it comes back I reckon.
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Post by nokturnal on Feb 27, 2020 14:10:52 GMT 1
The nightmare of the PV controller. So my question... We know the 29L-50 CDI’s go bad over time, but what’s the score with the PV controllers? Well... I’ve got 2 here and neither of them work. That cant be a coincidence can it? I had one on an 83 actually start to smoke... not sure the mechanism there, but I swear it happened. Swapped it out for a late model controller and all was good.
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Post by JonW on Mar 6, 2020 0:53:09 GMT 1
Eeek, Thats scary Dana. None of these smoked, they just just did, well... 'nothing' lol. To tackle the pair of these that Ive got that are dead I've bought a soldering station and some 0.5mm 'skinny' solder and some transistors from China, when its all here (and Coronvirus is slowing the already slow Chinese Slow Boats - Apparently the Aussie pilots wont board them to bring them into the ports until the boats have sat in quarantine for 14 days) I will swap the transistors and see if i can get them both working. If i can it will come out about cost neutral for me as I had two units to repair. I could have just bought some other used ones, but who is to say they would have worked and Id have chucked these ones out and I dont like throwing these out if it is possible to repair them. I could have fitted a Zeel too, but I dont have budget for that on this build. I've been quiet in this tread as Ive been working on the bodywork. This bike was painted with cans a good few few years ago now and it was mostly completed in the base white coat with a lot of hassle. Multiple repaints of the tank (not least as an exhaust fell on it from a rafter at one point) but also the paint started peeling off from a layer or primer that hadn;t fully dried out, sigh. I used a paint that was a nicer pearl-ish white and meant to be a bit better than the cheapo stuff I usually use and that decision came back to bite me again and again. To be honest it's not really pearly at all, tho it is a nice shade of white and doesn't have that look fridge-like look that a lot of whites have. The paint itself is the nightmare tho; It takes ages to dry, reacts with any old paint and even some new primers and has been a hassle the whole time. Im sick of the stuff to be honest. I painted my garage art with cheapo stuff from the local car accessories place in about a fortnight and this stuff takes months and months to dry between coats. Never Again! But... I only have the duck tail to finish in white and its done. Anyway, now some of the other panels are dry enough I was able to wet sand and clear them with my normal clear and so far Ive done the belly pan and side panels with the bikini fairing sanded and awaiting a day without rain and humidity to get the clear treatment.
In the meantime Ive also been getting the parts out so that I'm all ready to build the engine and posted this in another thread:
"Amusingly, I've been going through my engine parts boxes and found both good and bad news. The bad is that Im down a whole transmission as Ive found my last engine (the one after the LC2 and F2 builds) has burnt gears and someone obviously not too gently angle ground the sprocket nut off the shaft... I can fix the shaft with an LC one I have spare (its shorter of course and if id known that I could have used it in the 51LC, hmm... thats annoying... and then I found I was missing not only all my sprocket nuts but a clutch actuator spring as well, how can you lose those? i need to look in some more boxes for those, but it was really getting to me, I must have those somewhere. At least both those things are still available from Yam. It wasnt all bad news tho. Er, I found an RZ output collar I needed rust welded to an old out put shaft and got that off with heat and penetrating oil and behind it was the worst bearing Ive ever felt spin, geez i cant imagine someone really let an engine run with that in it. sigh. I also found an LC output collar, which is annoying as 6 months back I bought a nos one as I couldnt find one. grr... I even found some loose LC gear clusters, but the burnt ones on the RZ transmission were sadly the specific ypvs versions, ahh well it was too good to hope lol
So, as usual when you get down to the last few projects and you trawl your boxes you find you're not only missing parts but also rediscover some of the parts you were 'missing' before that youve kept in a safe place... along with parts you wish you didnt own and had forgotten were as bad as they are. lol Its a roller coaster for sure, not helped by me never once buying a whole running LC or RZ in the last 20+ years haha. I'd love to pull all the boxes and lay all the parts out to truly see the state of them, but who has the room and time for all that lol. I reckon when this one and the F2 is built I'll has less parts and be able to see what is what, but at that point it'll all be the leftovers. I had hoped to build a final engine, but I cant see that happening now. I had an idea to build one on stand like Yamaha built for shows from an old frame cradle and have it as a static-ish display in my shed, i could run it up for a giggle when I felt the need after a few beers lol. I guess even with stuffed gears I could still do that... hmm..."
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