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Post by Nicky on Oct 27, 2018 17:13:51 GMT 1
About to do a re-assembly but first need to sort out little problem when I took the pipes off. This is the stud that came out of the barrel and remained on the pipe flange 1. What is the stuff that seemed to hold the stud in to the barrel, that flaked off here? Looks like Araldite or something?
2. The receiving hole in the barrel itself seems to be unthreaded.
Is the answer to 1 above that the stud is effectively glued in - or must I thread a new tap? If glued, what do I use? Finally, I seem to have two copper coloured spacers and two smaller seal-type 'washers'.
They look OK if a bit grimy. Is that all I need, or am I missing anything? Any tips about how to get a good seal on the pipe / barrel mate - I seem to remember because the pipe is only supported by one measly mounting point on the footrest, the union at the barrel gets a lot of leveraged torsion which leads to leaks - which as we all know is not appreciated by our beautiful 2-stroke engines. Thanks all.
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Post by mikee on Oct 27, 2018 19:10:15 GMT 1
Helicoil it
Mike
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Post by steven on Oct 28, 2018 15:43:57 GMT 1
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Post by Nicky on Oct 28, 2018 20:06:26 GMT 1
Hi Steven Many thanks and the pics look great, but sorry, I don't understand...by grub screws do you mean set screws, the headless types that has a hex socket drive, and a cup at the other end? If so, are you saying I drive this onto the barrel hole, effectively making a new thread into which I then screw in the bolt? Sorry... L-plate Dunderhead here!
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Post by LC_BOTT on Oct 28, 2018 21:36:11 GMT 1
I think you need to get it repaired first, as mentioned it was held in with epoxy metal, so has just pulled out, and left the hole.
They are quite deep, and there could be enough 8mm thread unstripped at the bottom, I've managed to rescue one before, after using a ground down 8mm tap, to clean the thread as deep as possible. Other option is to remove barrel, get the hole welded and remachined by a local engineering company, or get them to fit a helicoil or a time sert.
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Post by doohanno1 on Oct 28, 2018 21:45:37 GMT 1
I think you need to get it repaired first, as mentioned it was held in with epoxy metal, so has just pulled out, and left the hole. They are quite deep, and there could be enough 8mm thread unstripped at the bottom, I've managed to rescue one before, after using a ground down 8mm tap, to clean the thread as deep as possible. Other option is to remove barrel, get the hole welded and remachined by a local engineering company, or get them to fit a helicoil or a time sert. Wbat is the difference between a heli-coil and a time cert.? Have i heard somewhere that a time cert is the " better " option.??
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Post by earthman on Oct 28, 2018 22:58:28 GMT 1
I think you need to get it repaired first, as mentioned it was held in with epoxy metal, so has just pulled out, and left the hole. They are quite deep, and there could be enough 8mm thread unstripped at the bottom, I've managed to rescue one before, after using a ground down 8mm tap, to clean the thread as deep as possible. Other option is to remove barrel, get the hole welded and remachined by a local engineering company, or get them to fit a helicoil or a time sert. Wbat is the difference between a heli-coil and a time cert.? Have i heard somewhere that a time cert is the " better " option.?? I'd like to know what the difference is too, I have an heli coil kit of one size in the garage, I've never had to actually use one but I can see how one would work,....time cert? Never even seen one.
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Post by steven on Oct 28, 2018 23:13:21 GMT 1
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Post by Nicky on Oct 29, 2018 8:12:45 GMT 1
I think you need to get it repaired first, as mentioned it was held in with epoxy metal, so has just pulled out, and left the hole. They are quite deep, and there could be enough 8mm thread unstripped at the bottom, I've managed to rescue one before, after using a ground down 8mm tap, to clean the thread as deep as possible. Other option is to remove barrel, get the hole welded and remachined by a local engineering company, or get them to fit a helicoil or a time sert. Cheers for your advice LC Bott, v interesting how there are always options available. much appreciated.
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Post by Nicky on Oct 29, 2018 8:48:44 GMT 1
Cheers once again Steven, I really appreciate your patience, thanks! Do the washers and spacers I have look OK?
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Post by steven on Oct 29, 2018 18:26:21 GMT 1
Hi Niikkio, There are two types of 4L0 350 barrels, old type and new type. (the older type are the best/fastest/coolest !! ) :-) The new type is denoted by a small number "1" on the "outboard" side of the reed valve housings. I think the smaller of your two rings is the older type of gasket, and the two copper coloured gaskets are the newer type, or mabey even YPVS ones. Im guessing you have the older type barrels, without the number "1" ? The exhausts system had several revisions during the production run, so there are a few variables. Where you are using the smaller ring gaskets that fit into the recess, there was a revision to fit an alloy spacer, which is the same size as the gasket, so an old gasket does more or less the same job as the aluminium ring, which was a revision. There are older posts on here about it, I,ll have a look once I send this.
The studs and gaskets etc are easiy to sort out, and still available, we can advise you on that easily, the main problem is, you will need to repair the stripped thread in the barrel. As said above, this will need to be a helicoil, time sert, or welded up and re drilled/tapped. Without seeing the state of whats left of the thread/material in there, its hard to say, but it may well involve having to remove the barrel to carry out said repairs. I,ll see if I can find any old posts. Are your barrels old or new type ? Steven.
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Post by steven on Oct 29, 2018 18:48:04 GMT 1
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Post by Nicky on Oct 29, 2018 19:28:14 GMT 1
Thanks so much Steven. I will digest - or rather read it and scratch my head over next hours and will revert back to you.
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Post by steven on Oct 29, 2018 19:39:34 GMT 1
...Niikkio, I have just zoomed right in on your pics, the other stud looks like it has been "glued" in like your first one. I,d say, you realy need to sort both those out properly, How are the studs on the other barrel ? are they in the same condition ?
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thorny2051
L plate rider.
2018 Focus RS Edition and some cash to spare
Posts: 29
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Post by thorny2051 on Oct 29, 2018 19:57:04 GMT 1
You will need a M 8x1.25 helecoil kit,drill size is 8.3mm (8.0mm is close enough),try the drill in the hole if it too big you can drill it out to correct helecoil size,if drill goes in hole you may still be able to helecoil it,if in situ on bike you can use a socket extension on the tap to get further away from frame etc,same with a drill bit you can weld it to a bar to get in without removing from bike,may get you out of a mess? have a go you can,t really mess it up more than the last person.use oil on tap if you can rethread it.
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Post by LC_BOTT on Oct 29, 2018 20:22:23 GMT 1
As was mentioned, time serts are supposed to be better, as the helicoil can sometimes get removed when undoing the thread/bolt etc, the time serts use some type of shouldered thread, that bottoms out when fitted, (two special drills are required to install) and these seldom come out once repaired.
I'm sure there's someone on here that works for Wurth, who could possibly explain better.
From a bit of searching, the time serts are a solid threaded bush, and Heli coils are basically springs that wind into a threaded hole, if that makes sense??
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Post by steven on Oct 29, 2018 20:54:48 GMT 1
When I zoomed in earlier, the hole looked like you would need this to tap that hole out ! My boot is in the pic for size. I have the wee socket to nip them up with too ! I think I would weld them up and re drill them, but obviousely the barrels will need to come off, but this is the right time of year for jobs like that. Steven. (ps just doing a test on my old photobucket account, which seems to work now) ? ? ?
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Post by jon on Oct 29, 2018 23:55:54 GMT 1
As was mentioned, time serts are supposed to be better, as the helicoil can sometimes get removed when undoing the thread/bolt etc, the time serts use some type of shouldered thread, that bottoms out when fitted, (two special drills are required to install) and these seldom come out once repaired. I'm sure there's someone on here that works for Wurth, who could possibly explain better. From a bit of searching, the time serts are a solid threaded bush, and Heli coils are basically springs that wind into a threaded hole, if that makes sense?? I agree Time certs are ‘better’ on paper. They are a solid bush with the inner and outer threads cut ‘in sequence’ for maximum wall thickness. They are installed with a normal recommended tapping drill, an STI tap and a special drill to create a counter bore for the shoulder on the inserts. The internal thread on the end is not fully to diameter, and by screwing in a thread to full depth after assembly you effectively expand the insert into the hole to lock it. All that said I have been successfully using helicoils for years, BUT they are easier to get wrong and require a special method IMO. First I make sure I use the correct recommended tapping drill size. Then you have to tap parallel with no slack using cutting lubricant. Next I clean the thread with carb cleaner or similar. Use high strength Loctite on the outside of the helicoil and insert. Leave for a while then I tap out the excess Loctite (if any) with a normal tap. Leave to cure then insert the stud/bolt. Jon
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Post by jon on Oct 30, 2018 0:09:58 GMT 1
When I zoomed in earlier, the hole looked like you would need this to tap that hole out ! My boot is in the pic for size. I have the wee socket to nip them up with too ! I think I would weld them up and re drill them, but obviousely the barrels will need to come off, but this is the right time of year for jobs like that. Steven. (ps just doing a test on my old photobucket account, which seems to work now) ? ? ? That looks a very fine pitch tap to me? M100 x 4 or M100 x 3? That said I expect it’s imperial as I think there are more modern ways of doing things these days (with CNC). Jon
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Post by steven on Oct 30, 2018 0:49:51 GMT 1
... I honestly cant remember what size the big tap is Jon, but yes, I think it will probably be imperial. My fag lighter is 3" A/F if thats any use ! :-) Delighted to see my Photobucket account is back on the road ! Steven.
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Post by johnlam on Oct 30, 2018 1:21:00 GMT 1
Hi you can get studs half m8 and half m10 .Maybe could tap stripped hole to m10 ? John
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Post by Nicky on Nov 5, 2018 15:07:12 GMT 1
Cheers Steven. What I have is a 250 barrel. The stud that came out left an unthreaded hole. I can fit a threaded rod snuggly into the hole and the nut for that fits a #16 spanner, but I've never known how to measure a bolt. Helicoil is probably the answer as although the tang will stay in place (it's a blind hole) that doesn't matter coz I can screw it all the way in. I've got a tap/die set so I just need to get some coils and hope I find the right size. Thanks again
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Post by Nicky on Nov 5, 2018 15:08:46 GMT 1
...Niikkio, I have just zoomed right in on your pics, the other stud looks like it has been "glued" in like your first one. I,d say, you realy need to sort both those out properly, How are the studs on the other barrel ? are they in the same condition ? The other three are all in place, but to what strength I don't know. I'm tempted to overhaul all four too, but...if it ain't broken...!
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Post by Nicky on Nov 5, 2018 15:10:56 GMT 1
You will need a M 8x1.25 helecoil kit,drill size is 8.3mm (8.0mm is close enough),try the drill in the hole if it too big you can drill it out to correct helecoil size,if drill goes in hole you may still be able to helecoil it,if in situ on bike you can use a socket extension on the tap to get further away from frame etc,same with a drill bit you can weld it to a bar to get in without removing from bike,may get you out of a mess? have a go you can,t really mess it up more than the last person.use oil on tap if you can rethread it. Yep, that all makes sense thanks Thorny. Would love to know how to weld, wouldn't know where to start (must be a YouTube channel!?). I'll let this thread know how is goes.
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Post by Nicky on Nov 5, 2018 15:14:23 GMT 1
When I zoomed in earlier, the hole looked like you would need this to tap that hole out ! My boot is in the pic for size. I have the wee socket to nip them up with too ! I think I would weld them up and re drill them, but obviousely the barrels will need to come off, but this is the right time of year for jobs like that. Steven. (ps just doing a test on my old photobucket account, which seems to work now) ? ? ? That's just plain silly!! Where the hell...what the hell is that tap for? Photobucket OK but there stamp can get in the way a bit...
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Post by Tobyjugs on Nov 5, 2018 16:00:42 GMT 1
Cheers Steven. What I have is a 250 barrel. The stud that came out left an unthreaded hole. I can fit a threaded rod snuggly into the hole and the nut for that fits a #16 spanner, but I've never known how to measure a bolt. Helicoil is probably the answer as although the tang will stay in place (it's a blind hole) that doesn't matter coz I can screw it all the way in. I've got a tap/die set so I just need to get some coils and hope I find the right size. Thanks again
Hi Niikkio, Helicoil is a brand name used as a common name for this type of thread repair. You have to use the correct tap for the type of thread coil you are going to use. I think you will be better off buying or borrowing a Helicoil or Vcoil set, if not you might cause more damage than good.
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Post by Tobyjugs on Nov 5, 2018 16:03:55 GMT 1
When I zoomed in earlier, the hole looked like you would need this to tap that hole out ! My boot is in the pic for size. I have the wee socket to nip them up with too ! I think I would weld them up and re drill them, but obviousely the barrels will need to come off, but this is the right time of year for jobs like that. Steven. (ps just doing a test on my old photobucket account, which seems to work now) ? ? ? i love the size of that ratchet, theres nothing like the right tools for the job
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Post by Nicky on Nov 11, 2018 20:00:26 GMT 1
Here's the hole duly tapped out And the heli-coil inserted. It didn't go all the way in as I ran out of depth, I'll just have to hope it holds out And with a new bolt threaded in. I used some loctite thread lock on it, hoping that will also help keep it in place. If it fails, I think it'll have to be barrel off and to the welder. BTW, could the barrel be fixed with a MIG weld? Did the photos come out OK? Thanks to you all who helped me out!
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Post by bezzer on Nov 12, 2018 16:19:59 GMT 1
Careful , there’s not much ‘material’ left around the stud, if the flange does fracture you’ll be in a world of misery. To make good again, as mentioned previously, I’d take the barrel off, have the holes TIG plugged and re-tapped, if it were mine.
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Post by morgy on Nov 12, 2018 17:23:17 GMT 1
is that a very large Tap or a very small Foot... hahahahahaha
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