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251LC
Sept 18, 2019 13:52:07 GMT 1
veg likes this
Post by JonW on Sept 18, 2019 13:52:07 GMT 1
I now started on a plan to work from the ends of the bike, back towards the middle. First up was the front and that meant the brakes. I am fitting LC2 calipers to this bike that came from my mate LB years back and were fully rebuilt 18 or so months ago for this project, but since then I’ve sourced a few more LC2 caliper spares in a job lot and refurbished them and I needed to make sure what I was using on the brakes was what I actually wanted, ie the best of the parts I owned. This meant undoing some of previous work, but that's ok, the brakes need to be good! One of the things I needed to fit to complete the calipers was the stainless plate that the pads rest against and this was supplied last year by a friendly forumer, Thanks mate! Said forumer also sent me a set of his stainless pad pins which was very cool of him and these went on along with a set of stainless springs. I also decided to make use the brackets that I’d had done in green by my zinc plater as I felt they added to the subtly different look I wanted, after all I’m not totally trying to hide the bike’s upgrades, more have them reveal themselves over time as someone looks over the bike. These were fitted up with re-zinc’d slider pins as well so everything looks and feels nice and new and won’t rust. FWIW I'm using EBC Organic pads, I’m sure they will be fine for the intended use of this bike. I did have some old pads with lots of meat left and could have reused them, but I already had the new EBCs so the old ones went in the bin. I used cleaned and re-polished caliper bolts to fit the lot on the forks, same with the hose clamps (with re-zinc plated bolts). Next up was the fitment of the Legend OEM style brake hoses. Hmm... I wasn’t impressed. I have the Yambits UK made units on my Resto LC and they are much better manufactured. The Legend hoses have some marks and lumps in the rubber that could be construed by whoever does your annual inspection for registration that they were bulging or worn/damaged. This is just poor attention to detail in the factory but I’m not very happy about it as it looks crappy. I’m starting to think that quite a few of the Legend parts are junk these days, taking over that mantle from Yambits. It’s also well reported that you get no where reporting issues with Legend products so I wont waste my time. Suffice to say after trying both sets of hoses my advice is that if you want OEM style brake hoses, buy from Yambits. Edited: I thought I'd best put up some pics of the marks and lumps and bumps on the Legend hoses so you can see what I'm talking about: Anyway, they're on... for now... We were getting closer to completing the front now and momentum was gathering. Next to go on were the horns. These are the new aftermarket OEM copies that I got from Yambits that I consider to be a bit of a bargain. I used my recently made loom (from 2 x 250 looms) and it was simply connected and tested. They’re loud! Er, pardon? I was about to fit the headlight to the bezel and complete the front end and then I realised I needed to prove I had a problem elsewhere before that and tackle it... more on that next episode!
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Post by veg on Sept 18, 2019 14:26:39 GMT 1
Oh you tease
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251LC
Sept 18, 2019 17:51:40 GMT 1
Post by reedpete on Sept 18, 2019 17:51:40 GMT 1
It’s a funny old world. A couple of weeks ago I saw an RZ250 engine with 51L on the barrels and thought ‘that’s strange’ as was expecting 29L. Didn’t think too much more about it as I just assumed some regional variation due to my location. By pure coincidence this thread awakened me to the 51L variant ...proving yet again you’re never too old to learn. As I don’t have an example of 51L top end in my RD timeline collection I revisited and had the necessary conversation ....needless to say there’s a 51L lump on its way to me. So big thanks posting this thread and expanding my knowledge and of course, great work on the project !
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251LC
Sept 18, 2019 18:28:47 GMT 1
Post by mak595 on Sept 18, 2019 18:28:47 GMT 1
Got a 51L engine, tooked away waiting for a rebuild....
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251LC
Sept 18, 2019 23:38:41 GMT 1
Post by donkeychomp on Sept 18, 2019 23:38:41 GMT 1
I've spotted the error and see you have already sorted it Jon. Yambits brake pads!!
Alex
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251LC
Sept 19, 2019 0:56:38 GMT 1
Post by JonW on Sept 19, 2019 0:56:38 GMT 1
I aim to please It’s a funny old world. A couple of weeks ago I saw an RZ250 engine with 51L on the barrels and thought ‘that’s strange’ as was expecting 29L. Didn’t think too much more about it as I just assumed some regional variation due to my location. By pure coincidence this thread awakened me to the 51L variant ...proving yet again you’re never too old to learn. As I don’t have an example of 51L top end in my RD timeline collection I revisited and had the necessary conversation ....needless to say there’s a 51L lump on its way to me. So big thanks posting this thread and expanding my knowledge and of course, great work on the project ! Got a 51L engine, tooked away waiting for a rebuild.... No worries pleased to spread the 51L love, its a forgotten engine and deserves its place for sure. Yamaha spent a bunch of money making it and then for some reason quietly forgot about it, and it wasnt because it didnt go well. I did wonder if we could talk to the Japanese if there was some kind of 250 race series in Japan at the time or something like that? Maybe this was the hot ticket to sow an RG250 a clean pair of heels etc. I've spotted the error and see you have already sorted it Jon. Yambits brake pads!! Alex Tut tut now Alex, the brakes are from EBC. As you well know Yambits sells plenty of good stuff, just avoid their rubber parts which seem to be made of liquorice... Not really for this thread, but I actually think their rubber parts might come from PGM in the UK. If thats the case you can see what not to buy from Yambits by looking at their catalogue. hmm...
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251LC
Sept 19, 2019 7:20:51 GMT 1
Post by reedpete on Sept 19, 2019 7:20:51 GMT 1
Boysen port is a good hack for partial crankcase induction, in our proddy bikes back then we put 15mm holes in the back of the piston just below the crown and rings. Same effect and with piston cooling but shorten piston life.
51L superseded by 2MA which was another step on again , then 2XT which was the best and last of forward facing parallel twin road equipment. So 51L fits between 29L and 2ma in terms of developmental road map.
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251LC
Sept 19, 2019 22:15:12 GMT 1
Post by donkeychomp on Sept 19, 2019 22:15:12 GMT 1
Have you used Yambits pads before Jon? I've always used EBC and never had an issue. And yes some of their stuff is great and some of it is total pants lol. Alex Maybe we should have a Yambits Yampants section on all the bits everyone has bought from them...
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251LC
Sept 19, 2019 22:42:26 GMT 1
Post by earthman on Sept 19, 2019 22:42:26 GMT 1
Maybe we should have a Yambits Yampants section on all the bits everyone has bought from them... I suggested that some time ago, more to the point, stating which parts are pants.
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251LC
Sept 20, 2019 0:39:17 GMT 1
Post by JonW on Sept 20, 2019 0:39:17 GMT 1
Have you used Yambits pads before Jon? I've always used EBC and never had an issue. And yes some of their stuff is great and some of it is total pants lol. Alex Alex, I did say above, but these are NOT 'Yambits pads' - they are packets of EBC pads with a Yambits label on them for their stock control. While you might not be able to see the EBC logo in the pics you can see that the rest of the packet is obviously EBC. It's not like anyone 'pulled an Aldi' and made a brake pad packet that looked a bit like EBC's and called their brand ABC or something... lol. Trust me I don't buy naff brake pads, these are just a normal packet of EBC pads. Here is the link to the Yambits site if you dont believe me: yambits.co.uk/rd350-ypvs-lc2-brake-pads-front-ebc-p-22580.htmlFWIW Yambits is not a manufacturer of parts, they do commission some parts to be made but generally they resell parts made by others. With this in mind they supply quite lot of stuff that is branded; eg Mitaka, Koyo, TKRJ, EBC and even Yamaha parts. These they just buy in and sell on, in just the same way as lots of other suppliers do with parts. We should not infer that as Yambits supplies these parts they are somehow inferior to other suppliers just because they've been touched by a Yambits employee who may also have touched other things we know are dodgy, like crank seals. In this instance, EBC pads are still EBC pads. Maybe we should have a Yambits Yampants section on all the bits everyone has bought from them... I suggested that some time ago, more to the point, stating which parts are pants. Yes this has been said before. I don't think there is anything stopping any member starting said thread of course. Anyway... I know this is the internet but, please can we leave the Yambits discussion behind now guys, this thread is about the building of a bike and not about generic issues with suppliers, let's do that elsewhere.
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251LC
Sept 20, 2019 3:44:47 GMT 1
Post by JonW on Sept 20, 2019 3:44:47 GMT 1
Ok so here is a cautionary tale.... I’ve built a bunch of bikes and should know better really. I made a cardinal sin and made an assumption... and you know what they say about the word ‘assume’... Pure Schoolboy error. So what was the problem? I ‘assumed’ that the PV cables would be long enough to site the PV servo where I wanted. I figured that the space allowable in the frame for the PV servo motor was very small and the cables feel quite long in the hand, so anywhere would do, right? Nope.... Apparently not! The past few weeks I’d had a growing uneasy feeling about the cables while I’d been building the bike up and decided I should actually test fit a cylinder. I was at least an inch out... I’ll admit I was quite heartbroken. In this photo you can see that in my original design the cables (red lines) exit one above the other and one is quite high up, the green line is where they would need to be to actually exit the servo motor to reach PVs on the cylinder in this orientation. I’m a bit surprised no one noticed and mentioned this really. Quite a few guys on here have put a PV engine into the LC, but I guess they all thought I must know something they didn’t or had some other plan for using longer cables etc. It’s worth noting that I really wanted to use the standard OEM 29L cables as I’d been buying them up over the past few years for my builds as I dislike the aftermarket versions since I had a nipple come off a Venhill a while back. So while I could have fixed this with custom cables, they would have taken weeks to get made or I could have sourced the bits to do it myself, but I had a plan of using only standard cables with a view that getting going again if I later broke something would be simpler with OEM parts etc. So.... The upshot is that the location of the servo was plain wrong. So much for the lovely bracket I made and welded to the frame which of course has now all been powdercoated. As they say in Aus... “Bugger!” So as this bombshell sank in I realised that not only would I have to come up with a new bracket but one that could not be welded to the frame as it’s been powder coated. I set about solutioning a new bracket that would hold the servo where it needed to go and this time it would be bolted on. I will say at this point that one thing I didn’t like about the original bracket I made was that it oriented the servo motor at almost 90 degrees to how I would have liked the cables to exit, forcing them through about a 75degree curve before heading over the frame tube next to the tank. I’m sure the cables could take it and that there was room but, well it wasn’t ‘ideal’ but this design seemed similar to what other guys had done. They couldn’t all be wrong right?! My mates all say that I love this sort of problem, but seriously finding a solution to this conundrum was a genuine toughie. I spent hours stripping everything out of this areas of the bike and moving the PV servo around while connected by the cables to the cylinder. Trying the cables both inside and outside the frame rails and rotating the servo in multiple planes while in close enough proximity to where I could fab some kind of bolt on bracket. This had to also allow the servo motor to not foul the loom on both sides or have wires get caught / worn by the pulley. There really is not much space in this triangle of frame tubes and there are very few bolt points. Initially I planned to retain the stock location of the flasher timer and wasted a lot of time trying to keep this in place, but had to give that idea up. I really wanted an elegant solution since I’d messed it up the first go round. I’m not going to detail the hours of frustration but suffice to say I came up with two different bracket designs, one off the coil cover fixings and one off the coil mounts. The PV servo is rubber mounted so I don’t think it needs to be held solidly as such to work, but this kind of motor is very powerful and I didn’t want an bracket flexing when riding over bumps and the pulley contacting any cables, so I chose to over engineer the bracket and attach to the coil mounts as the coil cover bracket is pretty flimsy in comparison. I started with some steel that actually came off my 500, this was the mounting bracket for some kind of bag rack the PO had bolted to the frame. Waste not, want not! After bending, drilling and cleaning up I had half the bracket done. With this top part in place I had to work out the location of the lower half to match up to it. More time spent twisting and turning the servo to find a location that worked for all the things that live in this part of the bike as well as work for the cables. I eventually settled on a location, marked it, dismantled, tacked, tested and finally welded on the lower half to the top to get this; It’s not really a beauty, but its solid, functional and can be fitted and removed easily etc. I gave it a lick of paint and it went on. I might well powdercoat it later, but I want to keep the momentum up on this project for now. Next up all the wiring had to go back in and while I couldn’t use the original flasher timer mount as the servo motor was in the way, I found the small steel tab for the wiring on the servo motor offered a point to hold that unit in place, although with the rest of the loom in there and the PV connector connected to the PV loom it would probably stay in place by itself. So, now all that effort and frustration has been expended, am I happy? Well, to be honest ‘Yes!’. While 10 mins spent locating a crankcase top and a cylinder would have empirically told me that the location of the servo motor was incorrect before the frame was powdercoated and saved a lot of hassle, the resulting bracket and packaging of the looms around the servo are now much improved over what I had and I probably wouldn’t have known about so many of the variables without fitting a loom etc. In the style of Jerry Spring, my final thought.... I would obviously advise anyone doing this work to test fit parts like this, don’t be a Schoolboy!
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251LC
Sept 20, 2019 7:11:35 GMT 1
Post by dusty350 on Sept 20, 2019 7:11:35 GMT 1
Hi Jon Nice work on the new over servo bracket. On the first LC/Pv hybrid I built some years back, I mounted the servo on a welded in plate under the coils in more or less the same position as you did. Standard Yam cables worked perfectly and were the right length, and orientated the same way as yours. My servo was a bit more upright though, and canted towards the direction of the pulley on the barrel. I think minor variations make a big difference with the servo cable run. My orange hybrid has the servo mounted in exactly the same place as my original too. Nowt wrong with either approach though, and a bolt in bracket is easier to achieve in a lot of respects. Dusty
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251LC
Sept 20, 2019 8:14:14 GMT 1
Post by JonW on Sept 20, 2019 8:14:14 GMT 1
Thanks Dusty. I agree and played a lot with running the cables up n down in their tubes and found that they were a bit tighter when canted right over but at minimal bends they were quite happy. The angle it looks in the pics is actually minimal and wont be an issue as of course these are newish cables, but its not like i'm ever going to run any of my bikes i have on old grungy cables of course. The OEM LC2 mounting is quite canted i think, maybe Yam were building in some obsolescence lol.
I agree a bolt on is easier probably for most people, ie anyone coming to this thread later and wanting to do a similar thing, as most people cant/dont/wont weld etc. I'd have been happy with a welded bracket (I was quite happy in denail with the one I did lol!). I just wish Id done my due diligence up front, not afterwards. lol
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251LC
Sept 20, 2019 9:08:22 GMT 1
Post by veg on Sept 20, 2019 9:08:22 GMT 1
I know when i built my old hybrid, there was a member on alexs? website that had done a run of brackets for mounting the serve under the coil pretty much like you have done jon and it worked perfectly. Cant for the life of me remember who it was and can't obviously access the old forum.
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251LC
Sept 20, 2019 10:28:27 GMT 1
veg likes this
Post by JonW on Sept 20, 2019 10:28:27 GMT 1
I know when i built my old hybrid, there was a member on alexs? website that had done a run of brackets for mounting the serve under the coil pretty much like you have done jon and it worked perfectly. Cant for the life of me remember who it was and can't obviously access the old forum. Interesting Veg, I used to love that forum. sigh... what a waste that Alec was in the end, letting it die. unforgivable!
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251LC
Sept 20, 2019 23:12:20 GMT 1
JonW likes this
Post by donkeychomp on Sept 20, 2019 23:12:20 GMT 1
Jon not doubting your word mate! I must have missed the bit about the pads being in a Yambits bag is all.
Alex
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251LC
Sept 21, 2019 16:25:27 GMT 1
Post by jon on Sept 21, 2019 16:25:27 GMT 1
I did think about mounting my servo in a similar position.
However I didn’t in the end as I thought the left hand side of the headstock would be totally taken up by the servo, leaving no room for wiring.
Any wires near the moving parts will get chewed to bits.
There’s no doubt it’s tight to squeeze it all in.
Jon
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251LC
Sept 22, 2019 0:17:53 GMT 1
Post by JonW on Sept 22, 2019 0:17:53 GMT 1
There was actually more room than I thought in the end and I'd no problem keeping the wires away from the pulley parts as its only the looms from the switchgear on that side.
Yep, It's all the futzing around to keep all these factors at bay that makes this such a 'project' really. You do need to be wary of the pulley and leave room for the fat main loom the other side, while at the same time keeping the pulley cables fitted correctly but it is possible to have a very neat job when done this way. Im pretty happy with it and everything went back back and was much neater and safe than what i had before really.
If one was worried about the pulley, you could always fit a cover off say a DT125/200R or adjust the FJ/R1 style units as well, or even use one of those servos... There are a bunch of options with the EXUP servos that most people dont know about I guess, I chose to use the OEM RD/RZ unit as I have a bunch of them Ive acquired over the years, but if starting from scratch you might do better with a more modern exup with a pulley cover etc
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251LC
Sept 23, 2019 13:27:24 GMT 1
Post by JonW on Sept 23, 2019 13:27:24 GMT 1
Resuming normal programming.... Ie. Throwing parts at the frame and making ‘em stick! Found and cleaned up, then fitted a speedo cable from my stock of old parts. Another of the old ‘spares’ used up wahooo! While new speedo cables are cheap enough I had a good spare so why not get it out of the boxes and onto a bike. Next up with the loom now back in and in it’s final routing, the headlight could go into the bezel as I’d no longer need to access the wiring. I’d even rezincd the clips which made them a joy to use. Here it is tested with and indicator running as well as I did a full retest of the connections since the loom had been peeled back to the middle of the bike again, everything worked as designed, phew! Clock lights all working, tho the rev counter is obviously brighter I need to find the correct bulb for that. Sidestand fitted with nice re-zinc’d bolt and a stainless spring I bought from Norbo years ago.
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251LC
Sept 26, 2019 5:36:36 GMT 1
Post by JonW on Sept 26, 2019 5:36:36 GMT 1
Pipes have now been painted using the same KBS Extreeme high heat paint (800+ DegC) that Ive used before on other projects.
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251LC
Sept 26, 2019 7:34:56 GMT 1
Post by earthman on Sept 26, 2019 7:34:56 GMT 1
Pipes have now been painted using the same KBS Extreeme high heat paint (800+ DegC) that Ive used before on other projects. This KBS paint, does it flake off at some point in the future? From what I gather, most of these high temp/stove paints do, well what's available on this side of the pond.
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Post by JonW on Sept 26, 2019 7:58:37 GMT 1
Dunno mate. I dont think anyone is ever going to promise that a paint is never gonna flake off[1]. This is about as good as exhaust paint gets without ceramic coating here so thats why I use it.
Im not wanting to do an ad for KBS really, I only mentioned it cos people would only ask what I used if i didnt. its an easy enough google to see what they say about it on their site I reckon. KBS is linked to POR and Eastwood according to other forums.
EDITED: 1 - I said that without checking their website and curiosity got the better of me in the end, and lo n behold it says this - ' is guaranteed not to burn off!'. Thats a Bold claim! (with a capital B)
I really dont want to advertise their stuff really as I said but this is their rundown:
-- Xtreme Temperature Coating from KBS is a high temperature / heat resistant coating formulated specifically to protect metal surfaces operating at temperatures from 260°C – 812°C. With proper preparation, Xtreme Temperature Coating provides outstanding adhesion, film integrity, corrosion, weathering and thermal shock-resistance throughout this entire temperature range, and is guaranteed not to burn off!
Features: - Withstands continuous temperature of up to 812°C - Outstanding heat and weathering resistance - Will not peel, flake, or chalk - Long Lasting - Dries to touch in 15 mins - Resistant to scratching & marring - Can be brushed or sprayed - Resists Rust --
What I will say is that it does level off very nicely and become more satin, especially with heat cycles. It doesnt really scratch or chip either and it does dry very fast indeed. Ive never had it run when spraying.
Is 812DegC enough? Well red hot steel is 900 and if your EGT gauge is reading above 1400 (760) youre very lean indeed. So, I say 'yes' it should be.
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251LC
Sept 26, 2019 23:21:31 GMT 1
Post by donkeychomp on Sept 26, 2019 23:21:31 GMT 1
Is that the final finish Jon in matt black? Or are you adding some HH lacquer as well?
Alex
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251LC
Sept 27, 2019 0:02:19 GMT 1
Post by JonW on Sept 27, 2019 0:02:19 GMT 1
Its actually a satin finish Alex. Ive found with this paint that it starts off quite bumpy and matt but over the weeks its flattens off and gains a satin sheen.
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251LC
Sept 27, 2019 23:51:38 GMT 1
Post by donkeychomp on Sept 27, 2019 23:51:38 GMT 1
Cool should look fantastic. Alex
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251LC
Sept 28, 2019 21:59:01 GMT 1
Post by rdrob on Sept 28, 2019 21:59:01 GMT 1
Hi Jon looking good amazing work on the parts you refurbished.
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251LC
Sept 28, 2019 23:50:40 GMT 1
Post by JonW on Sept 28, 2019 23:50:40 GMT 1
Thanks Rob, those clocks are the ones I had from you ages back, they came up pretty good
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251LC
Sept 29, 2019 6:06:22 GMT 1
Post by JonW on Sept 29, 2019 6:06:22 GMT 1
I cleaned up an old connector from my stash and made up a mini loom for the Dynatek. These are some of my fave easy little jobs. Those who got 10/10 for observation will have seen in the previous pics that I had the mini loom from the Economy Cycle LC2 kit test fitted as I thought about using it, but since I had already located an OEM old connector I didn’t need to rob that loom as I could simply make my own. I then set about bleeding the brakes and ran into an issue... They didn’t seem to want to pump up. The right side caliper it appears wasn’t getting much fluid. WTF?! I worked out in the end what the issues were, but it took me way to long as I blamed everything else before I found them as I worked backwards from the Calipers... One was the small hole in the master cylinder had become blocked by some small piece of deritus and the other was that I’d assembled the lever with the adjuster screw in too far, this meant it was always slightly depressing the plunger. With this backed off and the hole cleaned out I managed to get good flow at the calipers at last! Phew! Every part of this system was new of refurbished and I’ve done a number of these systems over the years and never had an issue. Amazing this had two! Of course the final part of the bleed was tying the lever to the bars to let the last of the air work its way up to the master. Always a crowd pleaser as it brings up a nice firm lever.
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251LC
Sept 29, 2019 8:03:20 GMT 1
via mobile
JonW likes this
Post by veg on Sept 29, 2019 8:03:20 GMT 1
Looking really good jon, I always end up having problems bleeding brake systems no matter what I do what gadgets I use, I now just expect problems.
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251LC
Sept 29, 2019 9:17:13 GMT 1
Post by JonW on Sept 29, 2019 9:17:13 GMT 1
Looking really good jon, I always end up having problems bleeding brake systems no matter what I do what gadgets I use, I now just expect problems. Haha, lots of people have said that to me, but other than the 6 pots on the 421 Ive never had a problem until this one. Luck I guess lol. Ahh well, whatever doesnt kill us, makes us stronger Today my mate dropped my powdercoated LC2 frame and swinger along with the swinger for this bike. It was super good of him to drop these off for me, sadly I wasn't home so we didnt get to hang out and talk Bike BS. I also now have a lovely red LC2 frame that is crying out to be built lol. Later... all in good time! (pics as there is some 51LC content here... a dusty swinger that needs a wash lol!)
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