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Post by yamark on Dec 4, 2018 22:06:02 GMT 1
Congratulations with the progress! I have a question. I have got myself two YPVS engines and a TZR 250 which currently has a XT 600 engine in it. I plan to make it a four cylinder RD instead. Do you have any suggestions regarding cut lines and principles for getting the sprocket in the right place? Or maybe you know how to contact Allen and ask? I am considering reversing center cylinders. What are the pros and cons? I plan to have 90 degree separation of firing. What would be the ideal crank configuration? I am just assuming you already have given this some thoughts? Cheers Bengt Cheers, . The cut lines, I can send you images. The gearbox output shaft has to be supported with an "outrigger" bearing, then extend the shaft (or have a new one made) for your optimum chain run, equal clearance between the chain/frame, chain/rear tyre. I have Mr Millyards mobile number . Reversing the centre cylinders will mean the power valves will get very complex, so I assume you'll go with non PV aftermarket cylinders. The cylinder heads will be tricky as well. Carb room will not be great either; heading toward the front wheel on the centre cylinders. Exhausts will have more room. 90 degree is good, I think I'm going 1342 firing order.
HTH, Mark
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bngt
Drag-strip hero
Posts: 202
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Post by bngt on Dec 5, 2018 23:23:16 GMT 1
Thank you for quick reply!
Yes please, images for cut lines. bengt.bjorck@gmail.com
Your outrigger is more of an inrigger. I like the look of that.
I guess we shouldn't bother Mr Millyard unless absolutely critical situation.
Reversing may be too complex. I just wanted to avoid four chambers under the bike and the TZ750 routing is not very attractive.
I am undecided regarding cylinders. I have a 421 Athena with separate cylinders and I am building a 472 with siamesed cylinders which seem much better but will then prohibit reversing.
1342 will be very trick but with completely new crank webs. I was thinking just running two stock cranks with 90 degrees offset. 1324. Any objections?
My biggest problem will be to figure out how to mod the frame to fit.
Bengt
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Post by yamark on Dec 7, 2018 8:39:02 GMT 1
Thank you for quick reply! Yes please, images for cut lines. bengt.bjorck@gmail.com Your outrigger is more of an inrigger. I like the look of that. I guess we shouldn't bother Mr Millyard unless absolutely critical situation. Reversing may be too complex. I just wanted to avoid four chambers under the bike and the TZ750 routing is not very attractive. I am undecided regarding cylinders. I have a 421 Athena with separate cylinders and I am building a 472 with siamesed cylinders which seem much better but will then prohibit reversing. 1342 will be very trick but with completely new crank webs. I was thinking just running two stock cranks with 90 degrees offset. 1324. Any objections? My biggest problem will be to figure out how to mod the frame to fit. Bengt I'll send pictures when I photograph the engine next time it's out of the frame. What ever cylinders you choose, they will need machining so that cylinders 2 and 3 sit next to each other - same for the heads. Firing order is easy, the crank can be built with the rods in any position. I use splined cranks to cope with the extra torque. No problem with your firing order. Building multi cylinders, is about what compromise your happy with, balanced with look and budget.
Cheers, Mark
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Post by donkeychomp on Dec 7, 2018 23:33:35 GMT 1
Just thinking out loud so feel free to ignore this Mark...but the CBX1000 springs to mind, all 6 cylinders of it. Has anyone mated 2 KH engines together? If so is it possible or even feasible to make a LC straight six? Ok it'll be pretty wide but so is the CBX!
Alex
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Post by yamark on Dec 9, 2018 19:01:29 GMT 1
Just thinking out loud so feel free to ignore this Mark...but the CBX1000 springs to mind, all 6 cylinders of it. Has anyone mated 2 KH engines together? If so is it possible or even feasible to make a LC straight six? Ok it'll be pretty wide but so is the CBX! Alex Hi Alex, I know Allen Millyard has made a 5 cylinder Kawasaki. A 6 cylinder LC is possible, but would be super wide. The CBX has it's generator behind the cylinders, and has a chain to carry power to the clutch inboard to keep the engine width down. TZ750's use a similar method- ignition behind the cylinders, primary drive inboard.
Also with a 2 stroke you need separate primary chambers (crankshaft area), they can't be shared. This is why the RD500 and RG500 need 2 crankshafts. So easier to make in line 2 strokes, but they get very complex to make them slim.
Mark
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Post by yamark on Dec 9, 2018 19:19:42 GMT 1
After finishing the front wheel spacer, I fitted the front wheel. The front wheel is from an FZR1000, with a EXUP speedo drive and R6 5EB forks
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And the new spacer fitted
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Also, I made a block to be welded to the sidestand. This acts as the stop when the stand is up and down
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Cheers, Mark
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Post by donkeychomp on Dec 9, 2018 23:23:53 GMT 1
Thanks for the info Mark...and loving the front end. I see once again you are aiming for a traditional look (traditional! Who am I kiding!) with the RWU forks. And plenty of brakes lol. You're gonna need 'em!
Alex
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bngt
Drag-strip hero
Posts: 202
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Post by bngt on Dec 14, 2018 23:30:05 GMT 1
Regarding 6 cylinder twostroke. There is a risk of twisting the crank if all the torque has to go to the end of the crank. A TZ750 layout with power transfer in the center would be better. They have though the big bang layout with 1 & 4 firing together. My idea is to shift the two crankshafts 90 degrees to smooth out power pulses. It will sound like a four stroke eight.
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bngt
Drag-strip hero
Posts: 202
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RD700LC
Dec 14, 2018 23:51:27 GMT 1
Post by bngt on Dec 14, 2018 23:51:27 GMT 1
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Post by donkeychomp on Dec 15, 2018 1:11:21 GMT 1
That link doesn't work but it is a very interesting idea.
Alex
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Post by yamark on Dec 16, 2018 22:22:24 GMT 1
The rear caliper needs an overhaul, so I removed the piston with a blind bearing puller.
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As you can see, the piston is knackered, so it will be renewed with new seals
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I assembled the rear end, the sprocket carrier needs to be machined, but I'll wait until the new chain slider comes in from Honda to check my chain run.
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And the bike getting closer to the end of the dry build
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I have to fabricate the rear brake master cylinder bracket, pedal and radiator brackets - then it's ready for the exhausts to be made
Cheers, Mark
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Post by donkeychomp on Dec 16, 2018 23:16:01 GMT 1
Oh man that is gonna be SO sweet. Keep it up Mark!
Alex
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Post by yamark on Dec 23, 2018 19:15:06 GMT 1
I've started work on the rear brake and restoring the clocks. I've got to make a master cylinder bracket, extend and re shape the pedal, plus make a plate to actuate the master cylinder.
One of my aims with this build is to have an oil pump. So there aren't many options (unless I look into snow mobile pumps). If I use an RD500 pump, the check valves project away from the pump body. This means the oil lines would stick out the pump cover! The Suzuki RG500 pump has the oil outlets in the same direction as the pump.
Now this is where I had a bit of luck. Unfortunately, Stusco damaged the pump on his RG400 (same pump as the 500). He let me have the damaged pump (top bloke), and this will allow me to measure the output. A big Thank you to Stusco So the plan is measure the output of the RG pump and measure an RD350 pump output and compare them.
First, I measure the RD350LC pump, this was done by drill at 1,500 rpm with the pump fully open, and with the pump on it's idle setting. This was then repeated at 450 rpm.
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Then the process was repeated with the RG500 pump. I only measured the output of 2 lines, and let the other 2 outlets drain into a container.
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The Suzuki's pump output is higher than the RD's! I assume the pump must spin slower as it is driven off gearbox on the RG.
So that's good, but the RG500 pump spins in the opposite direction to the RD's and will only work in this direction!
I have 2 possible solutions for this. More next time, as I need to collect a clutch cover from Dusty to cut it up. Then I can check the fit of the (rather large) RG500 pump into the casing.
Wish me luck, Mark
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Post by Mr Kipling on Dec 23, 2018 19:28:23 GMT 1
U dont need luck Mark u too gifted for that but Atb anyhows...
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Post by bezzer on Dec 23, 2018 19:36:58 GMT 1
Wow!, that is just stunning Mark, I’d hope to go autolube on mine, but couldn’t figure out how to do it safely. Even with one of Arrow’s high output upgraded pumps, and a pair of 1 into 2 lines via ‘Y’ pieces!.
As ever superb stuff mate, watching with interest…👍🏻
bezzer
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RD700LC
Dec 23, 2018 19:39:58 GMT 1
Post by dusty350 on Dec 23, 2018 19:39:58 GMT 1
Hi Mark Ingenious detective work regards the pump output mate If you used an Rd500 pump, could you space the plastic pump cover away from the engine to give room for the pipes from the outlets ? The fact other covers are spaced away from their original positions means most people probably wouldn't notice. Just a thought. Casing and rad are here when you want them Dusty
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RD700LC
Dec 23, 2018 19:52:07 GMT 1
Post by yamark on Dec 23, 2018 19:52:07 GMT 1
Wow!, that is just stunning Mark, I’d hope to go autolube on mine, but couldn’t figure out how to do it safely. Even with one of Arrow’s high output upgraded pumps, and a pair of 1 into 2 lines via ‘Y’ pieces!. As ever superb stuff mate, watching with interest…👍🏻 bezzer I'm going to check if you can link oil lines on Yamaha's fat body pumps. That way I could fit a pump to the triple linking 2 lines and splitting into 3. As Arrow can increase the output of a Yamaha pump by 30%, and as your doing a 500 4 cylinder - using a 350 pump and splitting as you suggest might work.
So if the splitting works, and I can measure the output of a 250 pump, I should be able to answer the question for you.
Cheers, Mark
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RD700LC
Dec 23, 2018 20:02:14 GMT 1
Post by bezzer on Dec 23, 2018 20:02:14 GMT 1
Thanks Mark, it’d be awesome if I could keep the standard ‘look’, and as you correctly say, with mine being a 500, and standard tune, as long as the pipe runs are equal in length … maybe!
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RD700LC
Dec 23, 2018 20:14:21 GMT 1
Post by yamark on Dec 23, 2018 20:14:21 GMT 1
Hi Mark Ingenious detective work regards the pump output mate If you used an Rd500 pump, could you space the plastic pump cover away from the engine to give room for the pipes from the outlets ? The fact other covers are spaced away from their original positions means most people probably wouldn't notice. Just a thought. Casing and rad are here when you want them Dusty I like your thinking mate. One of my options (that I think is the best), is to make the pump spin in the right direction by using 2 small gears. The RG pump would then turn in the right direction, and I could reduce it's speed to match the original output of the Yamaha pump. This "mini" gearbox means I have to space the oil/water pump by about 7mm (using the RG pump). Using the RD500 pump would mean spacing much further. The operating cam also, is 90 degrees out on the RD500 pump. I am pretty sure the RD500 pump will also spin the wrong way, so will need a gearbox.
Hope that all makes sense, Mark
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RD700LC
Dec 23, 2018 20:17:20 GMT 1
Post by yamark on Dec 23, 2018 20:17:20 GMT 1
Thanks Mark, it’d be awesome if I could keep the standard ‘look’, and as you correctly say, with mine being a 500, and standard tune, as long as the pipe runs are equal in length … maybe! As the pump has check valves, I think the oil lines can be different lengths
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Post by Tobyjugs on Dec 23, 2018 20:36:59 GMT 1
Over the years i have worked on lots of different diesel engines with cylinder lubrication via a separate oil pump. I have never seen a line split into two separate feeds. The oil will take the path of least resistance. This could even be affected by the small venturi effect in each carb. I would take the safe option and go for four separate feeds.
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RD700LC
Dec 24, 2018 17:31:57 GMT 1
Post by cb250g5 on Dec 24, 2018 17:31:57 GMT 1
This may not matter, but don't RGs pump direct to the crank cases, rather than to the carbs?
I'm thinking the pumps are designed to pump through a jet direct to the main bearings, rather than free flow into carbs?
Not sure what difference the lack of back pressure may make.
Might not make any difference, but I think we should ask Mr Arrow for his opinion.
NB. Been on the Xmas port, so this may all be !"£$%^
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RD700LC
Dec 24, 2018 18:13:20 GMT 1
Post by stusco on Dec 24, 2018 18:13:20 GMT 1
This may not matter, but don't RGs pump direct to the crank cases, rather than to the carbs? I'm thinking the pumps are designed to pump through a jet direct to the main bearings, rather than free flow into carbs? Not sure what difference the lack of back pressure may make. Might not make any difference, but I think we should ask Mr Arrow for his opinion. NB. Been on the Xmas port, so this may all be !"£$%^ They pump to the carbs
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Post by yamark on Jan 6, 2019 21:18:04 GMT 1
Unfortunately I've not had much time to work on the bike. I'm waiting for some gears to be back in stock to progress with the oil pump, so in the mean time, back to some fabrication
I had a chance to check my discs lined up with my calipers, which they do. The discs have a 10mm offset - but this is measured including the thickness of the discs, so the disc face is 5mm different from a flat disc.
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I picked up a rear master cylinder from Dusty, and cut 2 brake pedals up to move the pedal to miss the engine cover. Both pedals were damaged, so I don't feel guilty about taking an angle grinder to them. I also made a master cylinder bracket, and the plate to operate the cylinder. In the image you can also see the extension piece to link the arm to the pedal platform
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I've started on the rad cover/ rad pattern and brackets (which are very long!). Once it's all welded together I need my cylinders and heads back to progress
Cheers, Mark
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Post by philmill on Jan 6, 2019 21:48:54 GMT 1
This is going to be another awesome bike Mark, I will be watching every step.
Phil
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Post by yamark on Jan 13, 2019 20:37:27 GMT 1
Once again, I have to question my sanity - 2 new rad covers that I have to chop up! I like to keep the original rad cover look as I think it's one of the iconic parts of the LC. So I form a plan and use masking tape to mark out the cuts
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Cutting new covers feels wrong, at least Yamaha lowered the price a while back
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After a couple of hours, the 2 covers are cut and filed so they fit (and duct taped together), I managed to not scratch the plastic, and my mate Lee will plastic weld the 2 halves together.
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Cheers, Mark
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RD700LC
Jan 13, 2019 20:46:52 GMT 1
Post by earthman on Jan 13, 2019 20:46:52 GMT 1
That's amazing, I can't see any joins on the many thin horizontal bits, did you really put the join there or use one of the vertical up rights?
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Post by hudtm60 on Jan 14, 2019 3:17:20 GMT 1
love it
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Post by cbm on Jan 15, 2019 9:14:22 GMT 1
Once again, I have to question my sanity - 2 new rad covers that I have to chop up! I like to keep the original rad cover look as I think it's one of the iconic parts of the LC. So I form a plan and use masking tape to mark out the cuts
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Cutting new covers feels wrong, at least Yamaha lowered the price a while back
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After a couple of hours, the 2 covers are cut and filed so they fit (and duct taped together), I managed to not scratch the plastic, and my mate Lee will plastic weld the 2 halves together.
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Cheers, Mark
You had a tear in your eye when you showed me the ones you'd cut for the 550 and here we are again
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Post by yamark on Jan 16, 2019 19:46:47 GMT 1
That's amazing, I can't see any joins on the many thin horizontal bits, did you really put the join there or use one of the vertical up rights? Hi Earthman, I joined on the vertical bar. If you look carefully, you can see the double vertical line. The reason I left the horizontal bars long in the image, was so I could carefully trim them back. You only get one go at this, and if you bend any of the bars, you get that dreaded white stress streak.
The covers are with my mate Lee for plastic welding.
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