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Post by yamark on Mar 28, 2016 22:59:52 GMT 1
Some very clever sh*t going on ere!! Watching with great interest. Keep it going and all the best Cheers buddy, appreciate that
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Post by rigga on Mar 28, 2016 23:10:39 GMT 1
Can't wait to se the cylinder head. It still seems a bit old school with all the coils The cylinder head is a bit bizarre. You'll have to wait and see.
But stage 3 is the gearbox outrigger bearing section, and moving the rear engine mounts!
3 single o ringed heads? Or is that not possible . very interesting project and always amazes me the amount of skill and lunacy on this forum.
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Post by markhoopy on Mar 28, 2016 23:23:52 GMT 1
and lunacy on this forum.
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Post by yamark on Mar 29, 2016 7:07:26 GMT 1
Hi Rigga, both the O ringed and separate heads are a possibility. I think 2 separate heads on an LC has been done on here. My choices that I can see for the head gaskets are - O ring, copper, or have them made from head gasket material (the centre gasket will be unique) I'm not sure which I'm going to use, but feel 3 separate gaskets is the way to go.
As for single heads, the look of the bike is important to me, so I'd end up with 6 water pipe connections to plumb on the 3 heads alone! By the time I linked them all together I reckon on around 12 hoses/ 24 joints. The one piece head keeps 3 hoses/ 6 joints as original and acts as a brace across the top end of the engine. That's my thinking anyway
Oh, and quite a compliment being called a loony
Cheers Mark
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Post by Tobyjugs on Mar 30, 2016 9:30:58 GMT 1
For a normal bike i would prefer a standard head gasket set up, but for some thing like this i would definitely get it O-ringed. It is not all that often that with such a build everything will be right the first time around and that is where the O-ring mod will come in very handy. It will be very easy to remove the head for inspections with minimum of fuss and you can re use the O-Ring many times if you do not damage it. The O-ringed head on my hybrid motor has been on and off more times as a whore's nickers. That has saved a lot of cleaning and head gaskets.
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Post by yamark on Mar 30, 2016 17:27:55 GMT 1
For a normal bike i would prefer a standard head gasket set up, but for some thing like this i would definitely get it O-ringed. It is not all that often that with such a build everything will be right the first time around and that is where the O-ring mod will come in very handy. It will be very easy to remove the head for inspections with minimum of fuss and you can re use the O-Ring many times if you do not damage it. The O-ringed head on my hybrid motor has been on and off more times as a whore's nickers. That has saved a lot of cleaning and head gaskets. Cheers for the info, thanks tobyjugs. I kind of like the idea that the O-rings will have that little bit of give, and the fact they can be reused is a big plus. Does anybody know 1. do the O-rings have to be changed regularly? ie through perishing. 2. can you change them yourself? 3. is their anybody on the forum that does O-ring heads?
TIA Mark
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Post by midlifecrisisrd on Mar 30, 2016 18:09:26 GMT 1
Dean at metmachex o rings lc heads. He does an inner and outer ring around the studs.
Glyn (sadly for us now living in Canada) fitted single o rings to my ypvs head.
It uses Vito o rings around the bore and you just silicone the water jacket.
This should be do able by a competent machine shop as just a bit of milling a groove in the head.
Alternatively you could cut the grooves in the barrels and the head would just be machined flat to give the correct squish.
The o rings are required usable but to be honest I bought spares off eBay. 10 for about £6. They should not perish and just sit in the grooves so easily changed
Glyn (gplracing) is a helpful guy so no doubt he would tell you the spec of o ring's he uses and the depth of the groove.
There are pics of my head in my 385 ypvs thread in the finished section
Heads are difficult enough to seal never mind a third cylinder.
Awesome build by the way. Fancy doing a 3 or 4 cylinder one day with billet cases
Steve
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Post by yamark on Mar 30, 2016 18:20:19 GMT 1
Steve, your an absolute star, just the info I needed
Cheers Mark
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Post by jon on Mar 30, 2016 20:00:25 GMT 1
Mark, I've never had a o-ringed head before as I am concerned. There is little room between the bore and studs to put one.
This means a small bit of aluminium left between the bore and the o-ring groove. I thought I'd heard of this failing before?
This is fine on a billet head, but I worry about it snapping off on a cast head.
For this reason I think I'd rather the barrels o-ringed, as the steel liner will add strength.
That said I wonder how many o-ringed cast heads have failed, and if I'm worrying unessarily.
Jon
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Post by yamark on Mar 30, 2016 20:44:04 GMT 1
Mark, I've never had a o-ringed head before as I am concerned. There is little room between the bore and studs to put one. This means a small bit of aluminium left between the bore and the o-ring groove. I thought I'd heard of this failing before? This is fine on a billet head, but I worry about it snapping off on a cast head. For this reason I think I'd rather the barrels o-ringed, as the steel liner will add strength. That said I wonder how many o-ringed cast heads have failed, and if I'm worrying unessarily. Jon I think you have a valid point Jon, the centre cylinder where machined has a small amount of material to O-ring. water passage to outside. I'll have to take photo's and send them to Dean at Metmachex when I'm ready for his opinion. Second choice is copper gaskets. A pain as I'll have to make them, but at least I can re-use them.
One of many problems to solve
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Post by Tobyjugs on Mar 30, 2016 23:46:23 GMT 1
Hi yamark my head was machined by Metmachex and here is a picture for you. The depth of the grooves depends on the hardness of the O-ring which i think they call shore. There is a company called Parker who have published tables where you can find the correct depth of groove for the particular size and shore of O-ring. It really is a science and i think it would be easier to ask someone as Steve suggested. I've got no experience of copper gaskets on RD engines but my gut feeling is large area of gasket and low torque values of head bolts i would not go there. You can of course go genuine parts as it is easy to adapt the original gasket to fit. They are almost single head gaskets.
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Post by lb on Mar 31, 2016 7:01:25 GMT 1
Glyn (gplracing) is a helpful guy so no doubt he would tell you the spec of o ring's he uses and the depth of the groove. Steve + 1 For Glyn,hes doing 2 lc heads for me as we speak. Def helpful with any info you require. Just that very busy with work & family at this time. But well worth asking.
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Post by yamark on Mar 31, 2016 19:18:48 GMT 1
Thanks Tobyjugs for posting that pic of your cylinder head, it does look the business. I can't adapt a standard head gasket as the middle cylinder had 2 straight sides. Obviously all three gaskets must be the same thickness an material. So they have to be made. I also know that copper head gaskets are unforgiving, so I hope I can get the head O-ringed.
lb, thanks for the heads up on Glyn, I'll sound him out to see what he thinks.
Mark
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Post by dusty350 on Mar 31, 2016 19:59:50 GMT 1
Hi Mark If you want to experiment with copper, I have a used Lc copper head gasket in some spares you can have. It may persuade you in one direction or another Dusty
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Post by yamark on Mar 31, 2016 20:10:07 GMT 1
Hi Mark If you want to experiment with copper, I have a used Lc copper head gasket in some spares you can have. It may persuade you in one direction or another Dusty Thank Dusty mate, I always seem to raid your many boxes of goodies Yes please to that offer, put them to one side for me and we'll get together for a cup of tea and another lengthy chin wag soon
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Post by dusty350 on Mar 31, 2016 20:53:04 GMT 1
Ok, will do mate Dusty
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Post by yamark on Apr 7, 2016 19:15:36 GMT 1
Before more images I thought I'd explain a little bit more about the crankcase work. The LC is 102mm between the cylinders. This means the engine will be 102mm wider (centre to centre of pistons) Therefor the engine must move 51mm right to keep the middle cylinder in the middle of the frame. This brings up a few problems - 1) the engine mounts, front and rear 2) the exhausts will go through the front frame tubes 3) the gear change shaft will need to be lengthened 4) the clutch pushrod has to be extended 5) the gearbox shaft has to be extended for the sprocket 6) the left engine cover has to be moved outward
The left side of the crankcase is extended with the cannibalised crankcase. The new section has no oil in it, so gearbox oil capacity stays the same. This section adds strength behind the left cylinder, centralises the rear engine mount, gives mounting points for the left engine cover. The section also can carry an extra bearing for the extended gearbox shaft (the outrigger bearing)
IMG_1492
The next image shows the right hand rear engine mount removed (a plate is welded over it) Also the second bar is placed in the engine to align the gearbox bearings. The left tacho drive is also removed before welding
IMG_1493
IMG_1494
Stage 4 is welding it all together
Mark
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Post by Tobyjugs on Apr 7, 2016 19:40:17 GMT 1
Hi Yamark i think what you are doing is great. I hope you do not mind a bit of criticism, there is a lot of radicle modifying going on and i just can't understand why you don't go that little bit further to fill that void space with oil so you can lubricate the outer bearing sufficiently with clean oil, The original oil seal will be a nightmare to change if it starts leaking. How do you plan to to lubricate the outside bearing?
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Post by markhoopy on Apr 7, 2016 19:51:27 GMT 1
If a single photo sums up the whole idea this is it
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Post by yamark on Apr 7, 2016 20:20:25 GMT 1
Hi Yamark i think what you are doing is great. I hope you do not mind a bit of criticism, there is a lot of radicle modifying going on and i just can't understand why you don't go that little bit further to fill that void space with oil so you can lubricate the outer bearing sufficiently with clean oil, The original oil seal will be a nightmare to change if it starts leaking. How do you plan to to lubricate the outside bearing? Thanks Tobyjugs, Good question, and it's certainly not criticism mate . My understanding from people who have welded the extra outrigger section on is that the gears pick up the oil which splashes it around and that lubes the gearbox bearings. As no gears will be in that section the oil would serve little purpose. It is also, a very difficult area to get oil tight. You are correct that the oil seal will be inboard and hard to change, but a sealed bearing is used in the outrigger section, and with this removed the seal could be replaced. If not cases apart, as if your right crank seal needed replacing. (The gearshaft oil seal is get-at-able). The life of the outrigger bearing will of course be a lot shorter than the normal gearbox bearings. I don't think I'll be doing 12,000 miles a year on the bike! In doing this type of major surgery, I have to have a couple of compromises and marginal decisions. Whether I make the right choices is hard to say, but Harry and Graham have built several "Frankenstein" 2 stroke engines and so far their advice has been superb. Great question mate.
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Post by Slabsideian on Apr 7, 2016 20:44:05 GMT 1
Fantastic work mark. My little worried about mine seem so trivial now lol. Is that a halfords tat hey on the floor? I have a 1/2 set just like that Ive had for around 27 years and it's been good as gold. Keep up the good work mate looking forays to seeing your progress
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Post by Tobyjugs on Apr 9, 2016 20:14:15 GMT 1
Hi yamark on further reflection i guess you could compare the outrigger bearing to a wheel bearing these also have to take all the load of the engine, there in a dirty place and also last a long time.
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Post by Yogi on Apr 9, 2016 20:34:38 GMT 1
Hi Mark Keep the pics coming mate there starting to make some sense in my mushy brain now Can't wait to See you overcome all the little conundrums it's gonna through in your way Good Luck Matt
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Post by yamark on Apr 10, 2016 7:05:56 GMT 1
Hi yamark on further reflection i guess you could compare the outrigger bearing to a wheel bearing these also have to take all the load of the engine, there in a dirty place and also last a long time. That was my thinking exactly. The bearing will be the best quality sealed with a steel cage (not plastic) that I can source. On the same subject- The gearbox output shaft on this sort of project, normally get extended. Normal route is a second LC shaft is keyed on to the original with an interference fit sleeve over the join, then grub screws on the sleeve. I want a longer gearbox shaft made from scratch, but not all engineering workshops can do the splines. The estimates so far (for copying the shaft plus 51mm longer) are mad money, but I know I don't want a join in the shaft and won't compromise. (I'm quite assertive and dig my heels in on the odd occasion).
Yogi, I can't believe you think you have mushy brain mate, but the next stage- welding the cases with the two extra sections on, and all the plates that seal the crankcases up will start to make sense.
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Post by Tobyjugs on Apr 10, 2016 9:10:32 GMT 1
I Know what you mean about getting your shaft reproduced. I have worked with many people from a company called Stork Gears and when i asked about making a gear wheel i was flabbergasted by the price. A few years ago i was in a workshop where they did a lot of friction welding of shafts. I thought this method was old hat but was informed by the people i was working with it is one of the best ways to join two shafts together. Is this an option
Even better still get all the members of this forum to pool there skills and make it as there seems to be a lot of skilled people with engineering jobs on this site
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Post by jon on Apr 10, 2016 9:32:20 GMT 1
Mark, I assume you are also going to have to extend the gear selector shaft?
Will the neutral switch bolt on the original place in the void?
Jon
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Post by yamark on Apr 10, 2016 13:38:26 GMT 1
I Know what you mean about getting your shaft reproduced. I have worked with many people from a company called Stork Gears and when i asked about making a gear wheel i was flabbergasted by the price. A few years ago i was in a workshop where they did a lot of friction welding of shafts. I thought this method was old hat but was informed by the people i was working with it is one of the best ways to join two shafts together. Is this an option Even better still get all the members of this forum to pool there skills and make it as there seems to be a lot of skilled people with engineering jobs on this site I've not heard of friction welding, thanks for the info mate, I'll research it. That's what I was hoping for, - someone who knows someone on this forum to point me in the right direction. I've got one definite on making a bespoke shaft, but hope to get the price down.
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Post by yamark on Apr 10, 2016 13:54:53 GMT 1
Mark, I assume you are also going to have to extend the gear selector shaft? Will the neutral switch bolt on the original place in the void? Jon Jon, I'm impressed with your vision. The gear selector shaft is extended. It was found out by Harry that if you just extended the LC shaft, the extra length meant the diameter of the shaft couldn't cope, and led to a poor indecisive gear change.(Slight twisting of the shaft) The solution was found by grafting a CBR600 shaft onto the LC claw, which is the correct extra length and thicker. It also has the same spline as the LC. Just the cases to ream to the new diameter and a different oil seal. Yes to the neutral switch, but it's hard to get to when the cases are joined so I have a new switch and screws already that I'll assemble before the cases are joined
Cheers Mark
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Post by yamark on Apr 12, 2016 20:26:08 GMT 1
Next up stage 4- welding The rear engine mount bushes are removed, as the right hand bush has to be reversed, and is much easier to remove now. The left tacho drive boss is removed. Cases reamed for the thicker gear change shaft. Solid metal bars in. The cases are then bolted together. Then the new outrigger section is welded in place.
IMG_1525
Plates are made up and welded over the original RH mount, and tacho drive. The right hand cylinder head is bolted in place and the cut down head is offered up. Both the cylinder heads have to milled to be joined - that is stage 5
IMG_1532
An old left engine cover is positioned to give you an idea of the step between the two left engine covers (the generator cover is much later) This scrap cover is not the one that will be used.
IMG_1533
Beginning to look like an engine
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Post by risolc on Apr 12, 2016 20:36:30 GMT 1
Great skills on here!!!! I'm struggling with "simple things"
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